Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.35]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14187 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:52:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from stayhungry.rs.itd.umich.edu (stayhungry.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.42]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09541 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:51:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root at localhost) by stayhungry.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.5) with X.500 id MAA23230; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:51:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu6.psi.com (uu6.psi.com [38.145.155.3]) by stayhungry.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.5) with SMTP id MAA23187; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA08550 for spencer at umich.edu; Mon, 23 Mar 98 12:51:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA28847 for judge-digest-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:11:11 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:11:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199803231711.MAA28847 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1553 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Monday, 23 March 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1553 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: BJCP Lag Times? Re: judge-digest V1 #1552 Proper feedback? Re: BOS panel Re: out of style Al K's score sheet Nevermind Fast Return of Scoresheets ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RANDY ERICKSON" Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:35:57 -0800 Subject: BJCP Lag Times? Hello All: I took the exam in early December and learned of my results a little over = a month ago from the associate exam director (Thanks, Dave, I still can't = believe it!) My question is, at what point should I expect to see some sort of written = acknowledgment from BJCP of my status, and more importantly, find myself = in the potential judging pool for the local area? I will continue to = seek out the judging opportunities that I am aware of, but at some point I = would hope that comp. organizers have me on some sort of contact list. Thanks, Randy in Modesto ------------------------------ From: Charles Hudak Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:08:25 -0800 Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1552 Tom writes: >Ahhh! Did you think to ask the organizer if the beer was entered in the >right >category?? It is very possible (even probable!) that the wrong letter was >attached to this entry by the entrant or the organizer. A good judge team >will >take the time to verify that indeed the entrant wanted the beer to be judged >as an alt. As an organizer, I see this very mistake on the average of once >each competition. In fact, I think it happens more frequently in the >alt/koelsch >category because the AHA actually swapped the lettering in this category >a few years back! >Charles, maybe you took this step. If so, it's still good to remind judges >not >to hesitate to ask their steward to double check the entry form. Absolutely, I was born at night...but not *last* night ;) In every situation where this has occurred, I (we) have made every effort to verify the correct category for the entry. Unfortunately, in this example, it was there in the brewers handwriting. He/she did in fact enter the beer in the alt category. That is not to say that the brewer may have had a fit of dyslexia and *meant* to enter the beer in the Kolsch category but put down the wrong subcategory listing, who knows. I agree with your final comment. It doesn't hurt to remind judges that they can and should verify entries that are suspicious. C-- Charles Hudak in San Diego, California (Living large in Ocean Beach!!) cwhudak at adnc.com ICQ# 4253902 "If God had intended for us to drink beer, he would have given us stomachs." - --David Daye ------------------------------ From: Charles Hudak Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:20:45 -0800 Subject: Proper feedback? Al writes: >How many of you would be willing to offer the same comments on the beer >if the brewer was standing there next to you? I don't think I've written >anything I'm not willing to say to the brewers face. True...and not. I can tell you that very frequently I sugar coat my opinions of beers that people shove in my face and say "here, taste this". There are "what do you think"s and "what do you *really* think"s. I won't give detailed tasting feedback unless someone makes clear that they *really* want it. Many brewers (myself included) have a well developed brewers ego which doesn't take kindly to unsolicited derision. I don't feel that, in a social setting, it is my duty, or even my place, to give a brewer troubleshooting advice or feedback on a beer that he/she thinks is great. In a competition, the brewer has paid money to get anonymous feedback which I will surely provide. I will stand by any comments that I make on a scoresheet; like Al, I try to be delicate at times but I don't believe in sugar coating it and I always try to find positive things to say to balance the bad. It's not that I wouldn't say the things that I write on a scoresheet to the brewers face, it's just that I don't think that in most situations that is the kind of feedback they want especially in a crowded room full of their peers. Feel free to disagree. C-- Charles Hudak in San Diego, California (Living large in Ocean Beach!!) cwhudak at adnc.com ICQ# 4253902 "If God had intended for us to drink beer, he would have given us stomachs." - --David Daye ------------------------------ From: Dion Hollenbeck Date: 19 Mar 1998 08:49:45 -0800 Subject: Re: BOS panel We have always composed our BOS panels of out of towners. Yes, we do think about skill, but we generally have many out of town judges from which to draw. It not only solves the problem of "identifying" local beers, but we do it mainly to reward long distance travellers and keep them coming back. dion Judge Coordinator 1998 America's Finest City Homebrew Competition Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor http://www.softbrew.com/afchbc - --- Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen at vigra.com http://www.vigra.com/~hollen Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California ------------------------------ From: John DeCarlo Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:51:33 -0500 Subject: Re: out of style Al Korzonas writes >John writes: >>I have in the past argued to give >>an "out of style" score to Bavarian Weizens with zero spiciness or >>fruitiness. >> >>I think I am a little less dogmatic today. However, I still lean away >>from Al's approach of "simply take off points in each category without >>regard to style". >Hold on there... > >I never said "simply take off points in each category without regard >to style." I don't think I would have reached BJCP master level with >that kind of attitude. What I said was, take off points in each category >*BASED* on the style and let the score fall where it may. First, let me apologize to Al K. I certainly misworded my comment. I meant to say something like: "there is the approach that once you determine a beer is 'out of style' you give it a score that so indicates and there is the approach Al K. supports that says you never make a 'binary yes/no out-of-style' decision while judging to style." I still think you have to tell the brewer when their beer no longer fits the style they entered it in. However, as I tried to say before, I am no longer so dogmatic as to insist on an "out of style" score. Al K. certainly influenced me greatly on this one, though I still can't avoid the "out of style" decision while judging to style. It usually hits me fairly quickly, long before I complete the judging. When it is time to argue amongst the judges on the flight, I have no compunction about saying "Yes, this is by far the best beer in the flight, but it is out of style because [too strong/no aroma/missing key flavor component/whatever] and therefore can not win a prize." If I am convinced I am being too harsh, I back down. After all, I make mistakes all the time. Sometimes I regret winning such arguments. I remember once judging Bitters and arguing "This one is incredibly good, but it isn't a *session* beer. You could only drink maybe two of these before it overwhelmed you." And yet I thought it was within the guidelines, just at the high end of most of them. It ended up second or third and I to this day am not entirely sure I did the right thing. In conclusion, sorry Al K. for being so terse as to completely misrepresent you; it wasn't intentional. - -- John DeCarlo, Arlington, VA--My views are my own Internet: jdecarlo at juno.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/1113 ------------------------------ From: Bill Giffin Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:21:53 -0500 Subject: Al K's score sheet Top of the afternoon to yea all, I have to thank Al K for the fine example of what a judge shouldn't do when an American wheat beer is entered as a Weizen. Why give this Am wheat a 29? Just because it was a nice beer and perhaps even a great beer entered in the wrong category. Al did you follow Tom Fitzpatrick's advice and ask for clarification about the entry? Perhaps the beer was entered as an Am wheat but the organization for the competition put it in the wrong category. Al K said: "I would probably suggest giving it the 3rd place and not awarding the 1st or 2nd." What if the 29 were the highest score in the flight and no other beer scored above 25? As I have said before you can tell the brewer what a wonderful beer he entered and that it would have scored 35 +- had it been entered in a different category? As a master judge Al should be setting an example for the rest of us. His score sheet was not acceptable Al K said: "How many of you would be willing to offer the same comments on the beer if the brewer was standing there next to you? I don't think I've written anything I'm not willing to say to the brewers face. I know I've had to write "fecal" and "babydiaper" on some scoresheets, but I think I could say these things to the brewer as long as I could add, "maybe" and "a touch of..."" Actually anything that I write on the score sheet I would be happy to have the brewer right there. Face to face, then you can ask a couple of questions and help find out what the problem was. In fact I have a tendency to be harder on the brewer face to face to help him improve his beer and brewing techniques. Honesty is much more help then being mealy mouthed about what you are saying. Face to face if his beer smelled like piss I would tell him so without any problem at all, as would most of the judges I go judging with even though we wouldn't write in on a score sheet Bill ------------------------------ From: "Randy Erickson" Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:47:48 -0800 Subject: Nevermind Should have checked the mail first. The answer was there. ------------------------------ From: ao915 at detroit.freenet.org (Stephen P. Klump) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:07:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fast Return of Scoresheets Hello All, I just wanted to shine some light on the Heart of Dixie Brew-off. I sent entries to the competiton, which was held on a saturday, and received my score sheets (and a ribbon), the following friday. I also found out that the results were posted on their website by sunday evening. I would like to raise my half-yard in appreciation to the organizer(s) of this competition for excellent turn-around. If you guys put out a manual on organizing competitions, i would be first to buy it! Cheers! Stephen - -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Stephen P. Klump | ao915 at detroit.freenet.org | Plymouth, Michigan | ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1553 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.