Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:03:37 -0500
Message-Id: <199803181203.HAA15028 at synchro.com>
From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com
To: judge-digest at synchro.com
Subject:   judge-digest V1 #1551
Reply-To: judge at synchro.com
Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com
Precedence: bulk


judge-digest              Wednesday, 18 March 1998      Volume 01 : Number 1551

 ============================================================================
       J u d g e N e t   -   t h e   b e e r   j u d g e   d i g e s t
 ============================================================================

 Moderator:        Chuck Cox          <chuck at synchro.com>
 Archivist:        Spencer Thomas     <spencer at umich.edu>
 Publisher:        SynchroSystems     <info at synchro.com>

 Submissions:      judge at synchro.com
 Subscriptions:    judge-request at synchro.com
 Archive:          http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge
 BJCP info:        geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com

 ============================================================================
 contents:

 Style Guidelines
 Re: judge-digest V1 #1550
 Re: More Bigness
 Blond Dopplebock
 Call for Judges NYC Comp
 Re: judge-digest V1 #1550
 Waste Your Money, Time and Beer!
 [none]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jdecarlo at juno.com (John A DeCarlo)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:23:27 -0500
Subject: Style Guidelines

Hello,

While Bill Giffin does not state arguments that make good use of reason,
he does remind me of a few points others have mentioned and that come up
regularly on this forum.

1) Beers that are too "big" win.  Personally, I think this used to be the
case much more often than it is today.  I think most judges find that
there are beers that don't win simply because of the points they lose for
exceeding guidelines (too alcoholic, too bitter, too malty).  I know I
have seen this personally the last dozen or so times I judged.  Can't
hurt to remind newer judges of this natural tendency.

2) Beers that are "out of style" win.  I know Al K. and I argued about
this most vigorously some years ago.  I have in the past argued to give
an "out of style" score to Bavarian Weizens with zero spiciness or
fruitiness.  

I think I am a little less dogmatic today.  However, I still lean away
from Al's approach of "simply take off points in each category without
regard to style".  It does have a lot to say for it in terms of being a
consistent scoring approach.  But I still feel in my heart that if a
style is identified by some key items and they are missing, it is out of
style.  I also believe that in the case of close styles, that if a beer
is more of an ESB than a regular Bitter (and those are two separate
styles in your competition), then it is out of style.  The comments
should say "This is a really good beer, but it is not a Bitter because it
exceeds the guidelines.  Enter it as an ESB and it may win a prize."

But I cannot agree with Bill G. that if an otherwise perfect beer is 2
IBUs over the guideline or is copper when the guidelines call for a
maximum of amber, or is in some other way just slightly over in a
category that it should not win.  I say, "Let this slightly flawed beer
win!"  And then I can go eat cake for dessert after the judging.

John DeCarlo, jdecarlo at juno.com, Arlington, VA
(also jdecarlo at burp.org)
http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/1113

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------------------------------

From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak at mail.adnc.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:28:23
Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1550

Greetings all

Just thought that I'd chime in on this beer style thread.

I think that Bill has some very excellent points. He writes:

>How in the world does maintaining classic beer styles interfere with
>homebrewing being fun and an interactive social endeavor?  When we play
>horseshoes we try to put the shoe around the stake or as close to that as
>we can get.  That's fun, why isn't getting your beer that you want to be a
>particular style be as close to that style as possible?
>

The problem, as I see it, is that many homebrewers *do not* brew to style
when designing recipes, since that is not their first consideration. When a
competition rolls around, they decide to enter beers that, in reality, do
not fit a given style, sometimes *any* style, so they are forced to
pigeonhole their beers into categories which are, at best, a poor fit. I
don't see  many ways around this unfortunate occurance. In order to provide
accurate feedback, we have to have *some* standard by which the entries are
judged. In theory a purely hedonistic approach would solve this problem.
You could enter any beer and it would be judged based purely on its
organoleptic properties alongside its peers. Immediately, I see a problem
with this scenario; talk about favoring big beers, I'm certainly going to
rate a tasty IPA much higher than a bland American Lager, even though the
AL may be a great beer in its own right.

Styles provide a bench mark that we as brewers aim for, and we as judges
judge against. I think that the problem emanates from those who can't be
troubled by brewing to style (hey, where's our freedom?) but still want to
enter these beers in comps. As judges, we have an obligation to judge
according to the style guidelines, whether we personally agree with them or
not. Until we do this, brewers will continue to enter beers inappropriately
in categories they don't belong and judges will continue to award them
prizes because they are allowing hedonism to get in the way of judging.

Bill also writes:

>Go to the extreme, if you are judging a flight of dunkels, say six or seven
>entries and all but one are infected and undrinkable.  The remaining beer
>is a very good doppelbock, should it win as a dunkel?  The doppelbock has
>the right color, hopping and flavor does it get first place?  My answer is
>no.  I think that your answer should also be no.

<snip>

>We as judges with our lackluster manner of judging are destroying classic
>beer styles.  Too many judges' attitude is even though I know this beer
>isn't quite to style but it's a great beer, I am going to give it a ribbon.
> I say again if a beer isn't to style, it shouldn't win.

I really, really agree with this. Recently, at the AFCHBC we came across
this very same problem. In the German Style ales category, we had three
very good beers that just weren't Kolsch's. Consequently, they scored
poorly. Two beers into the Alts, we opened a beer that made my partner and
myself do a double take. Nice golden color, fruity aroma...I took a taste
and looked across the table and said, "You know what?" My judging partner
said, "Yeah, this is a great Kolsch". It scored very poorly because it just
wasn't an Alt. We felt bad but we deferred to the score sheets which say
"as appropriate to style" next to each category. I made a point of telling
the brewer that it was a great beer...a great Kolsch, but it was too far
off the mark to score well in the category in which it was entered.
>
>That doesn't mean you can't tell the brewer that their entry was a great
>beer, just entered in the wrong category.
>

And we did. Interestingly enough, this isn't the first time that this has
happened to me (I'm sure many can relate similar stories). Bottom line is,
if it isn't to style, it shouldn't score well, period, no matter how good
of a beer it is. Until someone changes the format of the contests, these
are the rules, and we need to hold the brewers....and ourselves accountable.

Charles
>Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Reed,Randy" <rreed at foxboro.com>
>Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:06:05 -0500
>Subject: Last Call for Judges
>
>South Shore Brewoff Homebrew Competition Dedicated to Quality Feedback
>
>The third annual South Shore Brewoff will be held about an hour south of 
>Boston, in Cranston RI, just off Interstate 95. The deadline for entries is 
>March 21st, and the actual event will be March 28th.  We expect a 
>significant increase in entries due to an increase in convenient drop off 
>points. Great food and a thank you gift will be given to those who 
>pre-register and work the event.
>
>The goal of the competition is to provide amateur brewers with quality 
>objective feedback on their efforts. Our club has a number of national, 
>certified, and recognized BJCP judges among our ranks, but we need 
>assistance from other clubs to get all the judging done.
>
>Please consider entering and/or judging our event. All drop off points are 
>stocked with entry forms:
>
>Witches Brew - Foxboro, MA
>Boston Brewin' - Beverly, MA
>Northeast Brewers Supply - Providence, RI
>Pawtucket Homebrewing Supply - Pawtucket, RI
>Hoppy Brewer - Seekonk, MA 02771
>Barley Malt & Vine - Newton, MA 02161
>Narragansett Homebrew Supply - Wakefield, RI 02879
>Brew Horizons - Coventry, RI 02816
>The Modern Brewer - Cambridge, MA 02140
>The Vineyard - Upton, MA 01568
>
>Interested in judging or stewarding? Contact Stephen Rose at 508- 821-4152 
>for entry forms. Only pre-registered staff can attend. Any questions about 
>the competition regulation, procedures, awards, etc., should be answered by 
>the entry forms or can be directed to:
>
>Glenn Markel 508-226-3249 or (GRMARKEL at aol.com)
>Randy Reed 781-341-8170 (RREED at Foxboro.com)
>
>Entry forms for judging can be found at our web site. 
>Http://members.aol.com/brewclub  You can fill them in, paste them in an 
>email, and return them to me or mail them to Stephen.
>
>Hope to see you there!
>
>Randy
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of judge-digest V1 #1550
>****************************
>
> Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com.
> Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.
>
>

------------------------------

From: jyust at juno.com (John B Yust)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:40:11 EST
Subject: Re: More Bigness

Yer Honors

This bigness thread has gone on for quite a while now, so I feel
obligated to prolong its life. Here's my $.02

 I agree with Bill Giffin's comments on styles in yesterday's digest
(#1550). I would also like to add that there is a possibility that I
haven't seen posted yet as a solution to the question of whether or not a
too big beer should win. I think the solution is to just not award a
first place if there aren't any beers that are good enough. I've seen a
variation of this applied to the lowest score, 25 points min. for a
ribbon. Maybe what we need is to establish some sort of standards for
first and second place ribbons. This would also help out in the BOS
round. The judges could be sure (assuming good first round judging) that
all the beers they are dealing with are to style.

As long as I'm fooling with this I might as well add a comment on another
issue. I have used the new score sheets and I like them. One result of
using them may be higher scores. There is a new top category,
outstanding, 46-50 points. I know I have judged some beers that were
outstanding and I'll bet you have too. I don't necessarily taste one at
every competition, but I'll bet every competition has at least one. I
don't have any problem with the idea that a beer might actually get 46 or
more points if it really is that good. I don't know how many times I've
heard a judge say "I've never given a beer more than x points." x always
less than 40. What's the deal? Is really great homebrew that rare? And
no, I'm not a beginner judge, I've been doing this since '93. I know that
as I have gained experience I have become more willing to give high (over
40) scores to beers that I think deserve it. I may not do this at every
competition, but its always met with fear and loathing by the other
judges at my table. I think we need to make sure our points are
consistent with our comments. If we say a beer is great, we should give
the points to match. I think the new score sheets will encourage that. 

John Yust
Knoxville, TN
Tennessee Valley Homebrewers Club

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------------------------------

From: CLSAXER <CLSAXER at aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:57:06 EST
Subject: Blond Dopplebock

In Judge Digest # 1549 Jim Busch, he did say:

>...a fine example of Hellerbock, or if you prefer, a 
>Blond Doppelbock.   I personally prefer to think of it as a 
>Hellerbock that goes to "11" but thats my opinion.   It demonstrates 
>all of the characteristics of a Hellerbock but happens to be of 
>higher OG than most.   Vernon Valley (RIP) in NJ used to make an 
>incredible Blond Doppelbock, which is what they marketed it as, that 
>weighed in at 9% ABV.    I think the style has merits on its own, but 
>it is quite rare to find examples of this strength in common 
>practice...

The Abita Brewery in Abita Springs, Louisiana used to make a very nice blond
dopplebock called Andygator.  It was not bottled and sold due to some arcane
alcohol content law or some such...  It was on tap for visitors to the brewery
and on tap at their brewpub.  I don't know if it is still being served there
now as I have not been across Lake Pontchartrain to Abita Springs in a couple
of years.  I understand there have been some changes at the Abita Brewery, but
if you find yourself in that part of Louisiana, stop in and see if they still
serve it.  It's worth the effort! 

Carl Saxer

------------------------------

From: kbjohns at peakaccess.net
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:50:27 -0500
Subject: Call for Judges NYC Comp

We can still use judges for the NYC Spring Regional Competition, sunday
3/22. Anyone intereseted please email me.

Complete info, judge can be found at the HOSI page URL http://www.wp.com/hosi/
Ken Johnsen

------------------------------

From: Amahl Turczyn <amahl at aob.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:31:24 -0700
Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1550

Bruce Hammell wrote:

> Meanwhile, whats this crap that everyone from N.J. has to send thier entries
> to atlanta for the nationals..

Bruce, the deciding factor for which states send entries to which sites
is not geographical, but rather it is based on the number of entries
received per state in last year's NHC.  Since so many states in the New
England area enter a large number of beers, whereas the southeast enters
relatively few, we had to compensate so as not to overwhelm the Boston
site.  As it stands, if the ratios follow last year's pattern, each site
should receive 500-600 entries, which, as you know, is plenty.

Amahl Turczyn
NHC Organizer

------------------------------

From: "Doug A. Mccullough" <Doug.A.Mccullough at bridge.bst.bls.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:42:28 -0600
Subject: Waste Your Money, Time and Beer!

Calling all Homebrewers,
Want to throw some money and time into a black hole? The best way is to
enter the Crescent City Homebrewing Contest!
A year has passed since I entered three beers at $9 each. I have received
no scoresheets, no contest results - absolutely nothing at all from the
competition. Neither has another Birmingham BrewMaster who entered. A
third Birmingham BrewMaster member called and found out that he had
actually won a couple of ribbons. Evidently being a winner is not enough
to get your ribbons mailed, even after spending the time and money to call
and beg.
The Crescent City contest is also a great opportunity to spend
unappreciated time and effort. Last year the out of town judges had to buy
their own lunch and pay $6 each to participate in the pub crawl. They got
no expression of appreciation whatsoever for traveling to New Orleans,
paying for a room and spending all day judging.
I understand that the contest makes lots of money every year for the
Crescent City Homebrewers. For their contest this April I plan to give
them all the support they deserve!
Douglas McCullough
Birmingham BrewMasters

------------------------------

From: Loren Carter <lcarter at claven.idbsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:27:51 -0600
Subject: [none]

I have a friend who will be in Orange Beach Alabama and New Orleans La for
several weeks and is looking for some homebrew clubs to visit.  If you know
of any clubs in that area, please send me(by private email) any information
that you have.

Thanks

Loren Carter
Boise State University
Lcarter at claven.idbsu.edu
www.idbsu.edu/chem/lcarter
(208)385-3473


------------------------------

End of judge-digest V1 #1551
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