Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.35]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15684 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.36]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA17100 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:54:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root at localhost) by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.5) with X.500 id JAA29619; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu6.psi.com (uu6.psi.com [38.145.155.3]) by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.5) with SMTP id JAA29608; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:54:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA13196 for spencer at umich.edu; Tue, 10 Mar 98 09:54:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA24998 for judge-digest-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:14:18 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:14:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199803101414.JAA24998 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1546 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Tuesday, 10 March 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1546 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Re: Make the winners take drug tests (judge-digest V1 #1545) Recipes and Competitions Recipes Too big beers U.S. Open To Recipe or Not to Recipe ... Re: judge-digest V1 #1545 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joel Plutchak" Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:59:50 -0600 Subject: Re: Make the winners take drug tests (judge-digest V1 #1545) On Mar 9, 8:37am, kathy or jim wrote: ...> > Could not really big contests send the class winners (and BOS) out for > analysis like sports require drug tests for winners. I'd pay an extra > pennies for my entries to know the winners were legit. > > We could go ahead with the awards ceremonies, but disallow > retrospectively the winners who are over style limits. Don't award a > first place rather that test the second place beer. > > Brewers know whether they are in style with the OG readings. A few > disqualifications from major contests would shape up the craft. This may be viewed as heresy by some, but I always thought they were called style *guidelines* because they weren't set in stone. They guide, they don't dictate. If I brew something that for some reason comes out with a little high or low starting gravity, attenuates a bit too much or not quite enough, has a little too much color or perhaps not quite enough, comes in a bit on either side of the bitterness range, etc., yet still manages to catch the essence of a particular style, I'd be sorely annoyed to have my entry disqualified based on failure to hit some specific numbers. Wouldn't you? - -- Joel Plutchak Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots Champaign, Illinois ------------------------------ From: DENNIS WALTMAN Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 10:27:16 -0500 Subject: Recipes and Competitions Most of the forms for submitted recipes just give a listing of ingredients and sometimes a time element. There are a lot of factors that would not necessarily show on a recipe. How the malt is crushed can require some people to use more malt than one would consider "normal." How one sparges can require some people to use more or less malt that one would consider "normal." How old the hops are, can affect how much bitterness, aroma, and flavor they produce. If I boil in a small volume and dilute with cold water later, I have to use more hops that a person who does full boils. These factors do not show up in an ingredient list. And rarely (I don't recall seeing it but maybe it does) shows on a typical recipe form. For example. My usual efficiency is around 50%. That means I have to use a lot more grain than many people use. Why so low? I don't sparge. I collect the first runnings for the first beer, and then fill up the tun with hot water and make a second beer from the second runnings. Sometimes extra crystal or dark grains are added to the second for a slightly darker or slightly sweeter beer. Sometimes some malt extract is added to the second beer if I want to make a 5 gallon batch of the second runnings. Most recipe forms I've seen cannot handle my procedure. Some are just ingredients lists. How do explain the 2nd beer. I used 16 lbs of grains in my ordinary bitter, 5 gallon batch? Likewise, if I use hop plugs, I could be getting older hops, and perhaps I need to use more. At the end of the year, it is not uncommon to make a beer with all the left-over ingredients I have; some hops are old out of the package for awhile (in the freezer but.....). If I use 2 oz Northern Brewer, 2 oz Cascades, and 2 oz of Saaz in the beer, someone looking at the recipe might say the beer was out of style; when indeed, the old hops just didn't give up everything good fresh hop flowers might. Dennis Waltman Sutherland, Asbill & Brennan, LLP Atlanta, GA ------------------------------ From: popeman at webtv.net (Tom Pope) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:24:19 -0800 Subject: Recipes I have been following the recipe thread an will throw in my two cents worth. My first observation is that homebrewers use different equipment and mashing/sparging techniques and consequently get different yield results in terms of specific gravity points per pound per gallon . I have noticed that Miller's recipes assume a yield of about 35 points per pound per gallon for boiled wort using pale malt. Yet many homebrewers achieve yields in the 25 point range, and consequently use more grain to achieve their desired original gravities. It is also sometimes the case that homebrewers do not wish to share their true recipes and sometime send in bogus recipes. Given these two variables, I believe it would be difficult to use recipes as any type of yardstick in measuring the quality of the finished product. I could see that if it was assumed that the recipes listed true ingredients and procedures, that a judge might be able to say the wrong type or amount of certain ingredients was used. However, I do not think a judge could state that a beer must have been too big only after looking at the grain bill and calculating maximum theoretical yield.....Tom Pope ------------------------------ From: "James Hodge" Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:28:30 -0600 Subject: Too big beers I'll be the first to admit that, being relatively new to the judging scene, I've less judging experience behind me than most of the contributors here, but I'm a little puzzled with the Big Beer thread discussion. Both AHA and BJCP describe beer styles using 'guidelines' not rules, definitions, or laws. Judging beer is an organoleptic evaluation which involves so many factors that a given beer could have an OG well above the guideline for that style, but still be within the style overall. It is up to the judge to determine if the high OG introduces factors in appearance, flavor, or odor that are out of style. A strict 'by the numbers' enforcement of the style guidelines would undoubtedly eliminate some very credible beers. Jim Hodge ------------------------------ From: John Mitchell Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 12:25:03 -0500 Subject: U.S. Open Get ready for the 8th annual U.S. Open in Charlotte, North Carolina, coming up on April 25. We typically have 170-200 beers. The entry deadline is 4/20. See www.ays.net/brewmasters for complete info and downloadable forms. We are also looking for judges and stewards. Contact Roman Davis at xzymurgist at aol.com if interested. John Mitchell 1998 U.S. Open organizer ------------------------------ From: John Weerts Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 18:45:31 -0600 Subject: To Recipe or Not to Recipe ... Recipes sent to a competition now here an argument waiting to happen. Here is my two cent on two previous messages in JD 1544. From: Michael Rasmussen Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:15:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: recipes I would like to see recipes provided to judges after they are finished rating the beer. The biggest problem I experience in judging is getting any feedback on my judging. By providing the recipes to the judges, while the beer taste is still a fresh memory, we can help judges develop faster. This would, for instance, aid in identifying hop varieties, young vs. old beer, and things like that trace of specialty malt flavor one can't identify. After just completing the 15th Annual KCBM RHC with 441 Entries. I can only think of the time consumed to review the recipe sheets with the judges. On many/most of the table we had novice judges and to go over the fine details would have required us to schedule each session to last an extra 1 or 2 hours over the 2 to 4 they were allotted, depending on the size of the category. I am not sure how this would have helped any more than if the judges were to discuss the beer (oops I know this is another trouble spot). The next message shows another portion of the problem reviewing recipe sheets at a competition, the completeness of details or their lack of information. From: Scott Bickham Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:08:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: Recipe philosophy It's amusing that some competition organizers put so much weight on the recipes they ask brewers to submit. Even if the types and quantities of the ingredients are given accurately, they are just a superficial representation of what went into the beer. For example, writing that 8 lbs. of pale ale malt was used is meaningless without giving the variety and type of crush. The recipe sheets often ask for the varieties and alpha acid content of the hops, but unless you used the hops immediately after they were measured and know the efficiency of their extraction in your idiosyncratic brewing process, this just provides an estimate of the IBU level. Boiling time? Give me a break - my evaporation rate varies between 1 and 2 gallons during a 75 minute boil, giving dramatically different caramelizations. Yeast used? The characteristics of the beer vary dramatically depending on the viability, amount of slurry and oxygenation. This is particularly meaningless for my pLambics, which are fermented with a mixed culture of yeast and bacteria that I have maintained for several years. I have no idea what remains or has been added during racking and bottling, but it makes a decent representation of the style. Water treatment is especially meaningless without a description of the initial characteristics of the local water supply. I'll happily provide all of this information to competition organizers or anyone else, for that matter, but based on the above, I feel it's a waste of time. Rule Number One: No brewers brew alike Rule Number Two: See Rule One Now we have that settled, we must ask why do brewers read books that have recipes, because they provide a window in to a style. We use the knowledge provided and transform it to our own systems and perform the miracle that is brewing. We, Kansas City Bier Meisters, take the winning recipes from our competition and include them in the club newsletter. This helps to guide (note: not engrave or even place in cement) our members on what methods are used in the brewing. These may include stating "I used a special yeast or blended my beers", all of this kind of information is useful to the reader. I personally do not follow any other person's recipe, because I know what my system requires, and it probably is different than anyone else's. I do however review it as compared to my own thoughts on a style. If a brewer chooses not to present a recipe for their entry they are overlooked when it come to publishing it, if they grossly overstate or lie about ingredients it reflects them not us. Some random thoughts - flame away. In Brewing John R. Weerts ------------------------------ From: RKrytusa Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:06:56 EST Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1545 IMHO, I think people (in general) should stop whining about judges palates, recipes, testing, and the whole host of ramblings of Re: to the Re: to the Re.... Grow up. Or not. My sixth grader brought home a paper the other day of things to work on. Among them: Show your responsibility by being accountable for your actions; Take charge of yourself: be a person who can be counted on to do the right thing; Be responsible by following through on things you're involved in during the week; Don't make excuses when you know you are at fault. This is a forum for judges to discuss topics on brewing and judging-- not a flame contest. Take Uncle Charlies advice to heart Relax, brew good beer, and have a home brew! RK ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1546 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.