Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 07:05:36 -0500
Message-Id: <199802191205.HAA08769 at synchro.com>
From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com
To: judge-digest at synchro.com
Subject:   judge-digest V1 #1540
Reply-To: judge at synchro.com
Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com
Precedence: bulk


judge-digest             Thursday, 19 February 1998     Volume 01 : Number 1540

 ============================================================================
       J u d g e N e t   -   t h e   b e e r   j u d g e   d i g e s t
 ============================================================================

 Moderator:        Chuck Cox          <chuck at synchro.com>
 Archivist:        Spencer Thomas     <spencer at umich.edu>
 Publisher:        SynchroSystems     <info at synchro.com>

 Submissions:      judge at synchro.com
 Subscriptions:    judge-request at synchro.com
 Archive:          http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge
 BJCP info:        geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com

 ============================================================================
 contents:

 Floccing Cells
 Score Sheets
 break and yeast
 Re: sanctioning

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David E Drinkwater-Lunn <David.E.Drinkwater-Lunn-1 at tc.umn.edu> (David Drinkwater)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:48:28 -0600
Subject: Floccing Cells

At 13:32 2/18/98, owner-judge-digest at synchro.com wrote:
>From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
>Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:00:11 -0500 (EST)
>Subject: Re: AHA sanctioning, flocculation

<snip>

>Regarding flocculation, Al Korzonas wrote:
>
>> cell walls of the various yeasts.  We all know it can't be
>> electrostatic... all the yeast are of the same charge.
>
>Actually, I *don't* know that.  There are many types of bonding
>is solids and liquids, and weak hydrogen or Van der Walls forces
>might be enough to bind the cells together.  Just because the net
>charges may be the same does not mean that the charge is uniformly
>distributed over the cell walls.  Think of the bonding between like
>atoms to form oxygen or hydrogen molecules, or the solids formed
>from noble gases like argon and krypton.
>
>Scott
>
>------------------------------

Just to muddy the waters a bit more, I don't think that there is any good
reason to believe that yeasts should not be able to attain a (small)
positive or negative balance of electrical charge.  In inorganic
(completely brainless) materials, it is possible to have two types of
particulates be charged with the same or different charges simply by
changing the solution pH.  This drastically changes their flocculation
behavior.  I don't see why yeasts should not be able to exchange charged
molecules and thereby create a collection of cells that array themselves in
a manner similar to rock-salt.  Rocksalt would not be a crystal if it
weren't for the huge amounts of energy gained by bringing a large
collection of ions together.
   NB  I am not saying this mechanism is either necessary or sufficient.  I
am not a biologist.  I'm just throwing out an idea...

D2

- --
David Drinkwater, drin0004 at tc.umn.edu, NetNick=Demodave,
Homepage at http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m020/drin0004
Chilling in Minneapolis at the University of Minnesota
Happy to hear from you! :-)


------------------------------

From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:11:41 -0500
Subject: Score Sheets

Dennis Waltman discusses scoring on the score sheets.  Actually I
believe the process is more complicated than simply marking up or down
on each variable then totaling the numbers.  That's dividing the problem
in a number of pieces each of which is measured subjectively.  The fact
is that the whole isn't just a sum of the parts and the whole is
perceived subjectively as well.  I believe that the experienced judges
who have tasted many of the better commercial examples and many good and
bad homebrew examples DO have an intuitive feel for the bottom line
score when smelling, looking at and tasting the beer.  This is one of
the skills in judging best of show where each beer is judged relative to
its style to determine the best beer without scoring each element
separately.  The table at the bottom of the score sheet is a good
reference: Is the beer an Outstanding, Excellent, Very Good, Good, Fair,
or Poor example of the style?  There's some "relaxation method" to
scoring the elements and then having that fall in the right range.
Hopefully the skilled judges score the elements and the total score
falls in the appropriate range.  But if it doesn't then perhaps you have
to add or subject somewhere to have things make sense.  

Dave Houseman

------------------------------

From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:07:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: break and yeast

Just a quick note in response to John's request for the DeClerck reference
which I said suggested break may interfere with nutrient uptake by the
yeast.  I did find two paragraphs that suggested this (v.1 p.335 par.5
and v.1 p.393 par.5) however, I may be thinking of another reference
because these two are rather non-committal.  I recall a book that stated
this a bit more firmly... possibly Brewing Science (Pollock, Ed) or
Malting and Brewing Science.

Al.

------------------------------

From: jac at iex.net (John A. Carlson, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:22:13 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: sanctioning

Dion responds:

>>> We prefer to support the BJCP,
>
>JAC> Why?  I am interested in statements like these.  They are
>JAC> political.  Isn't your competition your main interest?
>
>Yes it is.  Maybe I should have stated that differently.  We prefer to
>have a single organization that is in charge of judge sanctioning and
>style guidelines; guidelines that are readily accessible to all
>brewers.  The AHA has no judging program, and the BJCP does not
>publish their style guidelines in a nationally distributed magazine
>(yet - hint, hint) that is easily accessible to all brewers who would
>enter our competition.  Also, using guidelines that we can refer a
>brewer to, saves us postage from having to mail them out to everyone.
>
You raise an excellent point and I agree with you 100% about the value of
having guidelines that are easily accessible to the potential entrant
regardless of whose guidelines they are.


>We have low entry fees and lots of entries, and generally make a small
>profit, so giving more >support to the BJCP than "necessary" helps to
>accomplish our goal of promoting
>the BJCP.

Agreed.  I too, feel the BJCP should be promoted when possible.

>You all can do what you want to do, we prefer to lobby with our
>dollars to get a single organization in charge of judges and
>competitions.  You may deem this political, I deem it practical as an
>organizer to not have to deal with multiple organizations and style
>guidelines.
>
You make a good point.  I guess I just don't see a problem with the current
system of AHA sanctioning and BJCP judging/and or registration.  As Dennis
pointed out earlier there may be some value in the fact that the AHA has a
"paid staff" (Brian Rezac & Ahmal Turzyn) to get the grunt work done while
the BJCP relies on the good will of an all volunteer staff.  BTW, I think
all those volunteers are doing a heck of a job.  FWIW, since I entered the
BJCP in 1994 I have never seen things run as smooth as they are now.  The
program really has turned itself around in a positive manner.

- --John Carlson
BJCP National
Boulder, CO


------------------------------

End of judge-digest V1 #1540
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