Return-Path: judge-owner at synchro.com Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.26]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA23681 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:24:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.144.90]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA04754 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:24:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 8/9/98 - 8/10/98 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:01:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Judges and bottles/calibration... (Some Guy) -------------------------------------------------------- From: Some Guy Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:41:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Judges and bottles/calibration... Steve Vallencourt says... > From: STEVEBRAU at aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 05:59:21 EDT > > << After all: competing pits your > abilities to duplicate a style against others, usually using a commercial > example as a yardstick. Part of the commercial example's appeal is always > the presentation. If this weren't true, all bottles would be the same > shape and color, and we would not have the plethora of beer glass styles > out there. You'd be given generic beer in a generic bottle or in a > generic glass. >> > > That is exactly what separates a home-brewed beer from a commercial example -- > the presentation is no where near as important as the contents, and anyone > that becomes enamored with a beer because of the fact that it comes in a > pretty bottle with no regard to its real quality has fallen victim to mass > marketing and cannot, in my estimation, be relied upon to judge a beer fairly. > Look past the marketing ploys, and examine the beer as a standalone item... > I disagree. It's not a separation, but another commonality. When I distribute the fruits of my brewing, I don't go to the extremes of purchasing custom-made bottles but I sure as hell make sure the bottle is (a) not scratched to hell (b) "attractively" filled and, most importantly, (c) CLEAN. Presentation. To convince those who have never tried a home brewed beer to do so, it must first appeal to them. Just like with the commercial beers Let's dive into this a bit: as I suggested in the original post, I don't hold much credence to the fill level/oxidation mantra, but a half filled, capped bottle of anything does get a raised eyebrow - after all: I did spend the past 36 years being inundated by commercialism here. A capped, half-full bottle of cola here is justification for a refund, not something to be drank and enjoyed. To suggest that my perceptions and expectaions (and yours, as a matter of fact) have not been FORMED, let alone swayed, by that exposure is disingenuous. Further, to suggest that anyone educated in the least on the subject of beer would become enamoured with a beer solely on its bottle is just as self-deceiving as suggesting it pays no role at all in your consideration in the purchase of a beer. Never hesitated in picking that beer with the worn label of the shelf to try? What about those in the clear or green bottles? That's different, you say, but is it really? And if you got a blind beer as skunky as a polecat, or o glass with some foreign substance in it, how would you advise the brewer? Guess at its source? Too many do that already! Also, the suggestion in my post was NOT to obliterate a beer based on the bottle, but to continue to consider the bottle in beer'sthe overall score. Simply, my "vote" is to keep the place to score for the bottle on the form. Personally, I don't see the others being affected by the Judges perception of the bottle. If it appears to be, I agree with the previous post that stated it is an issue of training and discussion for the panel. Also, I think to not pay attention to the bottle at all would be to do a disservice to the entrant. The care taken in packaging is as important as the care taken in mashing. And the bottle is an intimate component of the packaging process. On calibration beers... Yes, the logistics can be daunting. Yes, it may be tough to find an example suitable - particularly in styles having limited or no commercial representation or those with many variants. No one suggested it would be an easy thing to accomplish, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. As one method of obtaining some calibration, the AABG (and likely others) has taken to what they call "Judge Training". These are a step in the right direction, and can focus both on defects and/or various styles. Having calibrators at the actual judging would be another step in the right direction. If you're planning a competition, you might consider it. Even if you can't provide a calibrator for each and every substyle and category, those for which you can will benefit. See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at oeonline.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor at hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html "Home brewers aren't for judges: judges are for home brewers..." Return-Path: judge-owner at synchro.com Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.26]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA23681 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:24:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.144.90]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA04754 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:24:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 8/9/98 - 8/10/98 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:01:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Judges and bottles/calibration... (Some Guy) -------------------------------------------------------- From: Some Guy Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:41:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Judges and bottles/calibration... Steve Vallencourt says... > From: STEVEBRAU at aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 05:59:21 EDT > > << After all: competing pits your > abilities to duplicate a style against others, usually using a commercial > example as a yardstick. Part of the commercial example's appeal is always > the presentation. If this weren't true, all bottles would be the same > shape and color, and we would not have the plethora of beer glass styles > out there. You'd be given generic beer in a generic bottle or in a > generic glass. >> > > That is exactly what separates a home-brewed beer from a commercial example -- > the presentation is no where near as important as the contents, and anyone > that becomes enamored with a beer because of the fact that it comes in a > pretty bottle with no regard to its real quality has fallen victim to mass > marketing and cannot, in my estimation, be relied upon to judge a beer fairly. > Look past the marketing ploys, and examine the beer as a standalone item... > I disagree. It's not a separation, but another commonality. When I distribute the fruits of my brewing, I don't go to the extremes of purchasing custom-made bottles but I sure as hell make sure the bottle is (a) not scratched to hell (b) "attractively" filled and, most importantly, (c) CLEAN. Presentation. To convince those who have never tried a home brewed beer to do so, it must first appeal to them. Just like with the commercial beers Let's dive into this a bit: as I suggested in the original post, I don't hold much credence to the fill level/oxidation mantra, but a half filled, capped bottle of anything does get a raised eyebrow - after all: I did spend the past 36 years being inundated by commercialism here. A capped, half-full bottle of cola here is justification for a refund, not something to be drank and enjoyed. To suggest that my perceptions and expectaions (and yours, as a matter of fact) have not been FORMED, let alone swayed, by that exposure is disingenuous. Further, to suggest that anyone educated in the least on the subject of beer would become enamoured with a beer solely on its bottle is just as self-deceiving as suggesting it pays no role at all in your consideration in the purchase of a beer. Never hesitated in picking that beer with the worn label of the shelf to try? What about those in the clear or green bottles? That's different, you say, but is it really? And if you got a blind beer as skunky as a polecat, or o glass with some foreign substance in it, how would you advise the brewer? Guess at its source? Too many do that already! Also, the suggestion in my post was NOT to obliterate a beer based on the bottle, but to continue to consider the bottle in beer'sthe overall score. Simply, my "vote" is to keep the place to score for the bottle on the form. Personally, I don't see the others being affected by the Judges perception of the bottle. If it appears to be, I agree with the previous post that stated it is an issue of training and discussion for the panel. Also, I think to not pay attention to the bottle at all would be to do a disservice to the entrant. The care taken in packaging is as important as the care taken in mashing. And the bottle is an intimate component of the packaging process. On calibration beers... Yes, the logistics can be daunting. Yes, it may be tough to find an example suitable - particularly in styles having limited or no commercial representation or those with many variants. No one suggested it would be an easy thing to accomplish, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. As one method of obtaining some calibration, the AABG (and likely others) has taken to what they call "Judge Training". These are a step in the right direction, and can focus both on defects and/or various styles. Having calibrators at the actual judging would be another step in the right direction. If you're planning a competition, you might consider it. Even if you can't provide a calibrator for each and every substyle and category, those for which you can will benefit. See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at oeonline.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor at hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html "Home brewers aren't for judges: judges are for home brewers..."