Return-Path: judge-owner at synchro.com Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.35]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA27047 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.144.90]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA24649 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:28:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 8/4/98 - 8/5/98 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 02:04:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Re: Digest for the period 8/2/98 - 8/3/98 (Scott Birdwell) Chlorophenols (Jeremy Bergsman) headspace (Al Korzonas) -------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Birdwell Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 12:12:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 8/2/98 - 8/3/98 I would like to comment on Greg Lorton's question concerning "Fill levels" and other aspects of "Bottle Inspection." Personally I would like to see this section on the score sheet disappear. As a judge, I would rather not even see the bottle. For a truly blind tasting, just give me a glass of beer with an entry number. If I can't detect flaws and other problems from the taste and appearance of the beer in the glass, then maybe it's just not that important! I think quibbling over fill levels is especially assinine. That's my opinion, anyway. I would welcome other opinions. Scott Birdwell (Master judge) -------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeremy Bergsman Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 11:45:25 -0700 Subject: Chlorophenols Back on the old (new) judge digest George DP asked: > On a similar note, several of my friends and I were made to look > somewhat foolish at a homebrew club meeting last light. A friend > brought in his beer for us to taste. We all agreed it was phenolic, > and I and one other person (who has also been through Siebel's taste > training) both said, "It's chlorophenolic. Just like the beer spiked > with ortho-chloro-phenol." (it smelled like a swimming pool, and > tasted quite astringent and bleach-like) > > He asked how that could get in his beer, and we agreed that > chlorinated water or not properly rinsing bleach off equipment could > be the culprit. He then told us that he uses only distilled water > (that he adds salts to) and uses Star-San. Oops. I'm surprised that no one mentioned that some contamination may produce chlorophenols in the absence of bleach. When I took the BJCP exam ~2.5 years ago we were served a very stongly chlorophenolic beer (brown ale?) that I believe was Russ Wigglesworth's. Maybe Russ can confirm my memory that this resulted from a contaminated keg? (Hope I'm not dragging out any dirty laundry for you Russ!) I also have a question about bleach and chlorophenols. I recently tried to doctor a Bud for chlorophenol. I added 1.5 ppm bleach (i.e. I diluted the bleach ~3/100,000, i.e. 9 uL in 355 mL). Figuring that it would be pretty reactive and that if the ppb taste thresholds I have read are correct, that it wouldn't need much time to get to threshold. Well, I couldn't taste it. I then put 35 uL in 355 mL and put it away overnight and tasted it the next day, and it just smelled like bleach and beer. How long do the chlorophenolic compounds take to form? Or is my dose wrong somehow? This may go a ways toward explaining why homebrews are rarely chlorophenolic even with all the bleach being used? Or is there too little reactive material in Bud? George, what dose of ortho-chloro-phenol was used and is this a likely result of bleach introduction into beer, given that beer would likely have a low concentration of phenol? -- Jeremy Bergsman jeremybb at stanford.edu http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb -------------------------------------------------------- From: Al Korzonas Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:43:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: headspace I just wanted to say that I concur with John and Gordon that we should do our best to not allow fill level to affect the score of the beer. I too mention the fill level as a potential source of staling or undercarbonation *only* if I detect these problems in the beer. Al. Return-Path: judge-owner at synchro.com Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.35]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA27047 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.144.90]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA24649 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:28:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 8/4/98 - 8/5/98 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 02:04:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Re: Digest for the period 8/2/98 - 8/3/98 (Scott Birdwell) Chlorophenols (Jeremy Bergsman) headspace (Al Korzonas) -------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Birdwell Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 12:12:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 8/2/98 - 8/3/98 I would like to comment on Greg Lorton's question concerning "Fill levels" and other aspects of "Bottle Inspection." Personally I would like to see this section on the score sheet disappear. As a judge, I would rather not even see the bottle. For a truly blind tasting, just give me a glass of beer with an entry number. If I can't detect flaws and other problems from the taste and appearance of the beer in the glass, then maybe it's just not that important! I think quibbling over fill levels is especially assinine. That's my opinion, anyway. I would welcome other opinions. Scott Birdwell (Master judge) -------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeremy Bergsman Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 11:45:25 -0700 Subject: Chlorophenols Back on the old (new) judge digest George DP asked: > On a similar note, several of my friends and I were made to look > somewhat foolish at a homebrew club meeting last light. A friend > brought in his beer for us to taste. We all agreed it was phenolic, > and I and one other person (who has also been through Siebel's taste > training) both said, "It's chlorophenolic. Just like the beer spiked > with ortho-chloro-phenol." (it smelled like a swimming pool, and > tasted quite astringent and bleach-like) > > He asked how that could get in his beer, and we agreed that > chlorinated water or not properly rinsing bleach off equipment could > be the culprit. He then told us that he uses only distilled water > (that he adds salts to) and uses Star-San. Oops. I'm surprised that no one mentioned that some contamination may produce chlorophenols in the absence of bleach. When I took the BJCP exam ~2.5 years ago we were served a very stongly chlorophenolic beer (brown ale?) that I believe was Russ Wigglesworth's. Maybe Russ can confirm my memory that this resulted from a contaminated keg? (Hope I'm not dragging out any dirty laundry for you Russ!) I also have a question about bleach and chlorophenols. I recently tried to doctor a Bud for chlorophenol. I added 1.5 ppm bleach (i.e. I diluted the bleach ~3/100,000, i.e. 9 uL in 355 mL). Figuring that it would be pretty reactive and that if the ppb taste thresholds I have read are correct, that it wouldn't need much time to get to threshold. Well, I couldn't taste it. I then put 35 uL in 355 mL and put it away overnight and tasted it the next day, and it just smelled like bleach and beer. How long do the chlorophenolic compounds take to form? Or is my dose wrong somehow? This may go a ways toward explaining why homebrews are rarely chlorophenolic even with all the bleach being used? Or is there too little reactive material in Bud? George, what dose of ortho-chloro-phenol was used and is this a likely result of bleach introduction into beer, given that beer would likely have a low concentration of phenol? -- Jeremy Bergsman jeremybb at stanford.edu http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb -------------------------------------------------------- From: Al Korzonas Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:43:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: headspace I just wanted to say that I concur with John and Gordon that we should do our best to not allow fill level to affect the score of the beer. I too mention the fill level as a potential source of staling or undercarbonation *only* if I detect these problems in the beer. Al.