Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:01:08 -0400
Message-Id: <199807080401.AAA30451 at brew.oeonline.com>
To: judge at hbd.org
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Subject: Beer Judge Digest #14 (July 08, 1998)


Beer Judge Digest #14		             Wed 08 July 1998


	FORUM ON BEER JUDGING AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Custodian: custodian at hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Beer Judge Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  On Belgian Styles (Bob McCracken)
  Taste thresholds (acetaldehyde and more) (Jeremy Bergsman)
  acetaldehyde (isenhour)
  Re: Historical beers post to BJD ("Joel Plutchak")
  Beers That Fall Between the Cracks (MaltyDog)
  Style Certification (Russ Wigglesworth)
  vectors (Al Korzonas)
  On being an expert. ("Schlein, Andrew")
  Acetaldehyde Detection (Aaron Shaw)
  Styles & Categories (Reegleyj)
  BJCP exam Syllabus - Thank You! (bernardch)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:47:06 -0400
From: Bob McCracken <BobMc at compuserve.com>
Subject: On Belgian Styles

>>"If a judge  slammed a tripel as "too phenolic,"then it either was 
overly
and excessively phenolic, or the judge was
wrong and perhaps did not know his styles.."

Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine, but every new Belgian (commercial) beer I

drink seems to further expand the range of the style. I find it extremely

annoying to get comments on a Belgian beer I have brewed that seems to 
have
'too much' of one character or another, when it only demonstrates the
Judges lack of knowledge of the style.

I'd love to figure out a way to give judges feedback on their judging,
without seeming like a grousing homebrewer :>.


Bob McCracken

Portland, Or.

06-Jul-98

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 22:58:59 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Taste thresholds (acetaldehyde and more)

Greg Kushmerek <grku at cayennesoft.nl> asks about acetaldehyde taste
threshold.  Fix gives this as 8-10 ppm.  He also asks about good
references for this sort of thing.  I'd like to know the same thing.  I
have found some info in Fix' books, in Evaluating Beer, and various
other places.  The data are often contradictory.  For example I have
read 5 and 100 ppb for diacetyl.  Of course this is probably in part due
to the variation in threshold in the population.  In my experience about
20% of people cannot taste diacetyl at 200 ppb.  

The information that I think is more useful is good training doses. 
Note that this depends on what kind of beer it is being added to and the
experience of the tasters, as well as their natural sensitivities. 
Following is a list of my training doses in Coors Light et al.:

Diacetyl 200 ppb
2,3 Pentanedione 5 ppm
DMS .2 ppm (Use MGD lite since Coors has so much endogenous DMS)
KMetabisulfite 5 ppm
Ethyl Acetate 50 ppm (tricky)
Isoamyl acetate .04% Schilling Banana flavor
Generic esters: Mix 1 pack each unsweetened KoolAid Man-o-Mango and  
Raspberry in 40 mL 20% EtOH.  Use .01% of this suspension and .03%  
Schilling Banana
Guaiacol 100 ppb - 1 ppm (still trying to find a low enough dose! 
This   is one of the most taster dependent flavors)
Oxidized (strongly dependent on beer used, this is for Coors light)
pour  out 25 mL beer, purge headspace with pure O2, 170F 5 hours
Isovaleric acid 1 ppm
Winy Cheap Chablis is suggested by many.  I find a dose of 20+% is  
needed and this has the wrong effect
Sherry Like Winy, too much is needed.  I believe it is better to
oxidize   a strong beer for sherry aromas
Alum .5 g/L but this is useless for beer judges--it's a totally  
different than hop bitterness
Grape tannin 1/3 t/L (foams!)
Sucrose 7.5 g/L
Skunking You'll just have to experiment as I don't have a calibrated  
light source
Lactic Acid .088% (i.e. 1/1000 of the 88% you normally buy)
Acetic Acid .07% (*Most* store-bought distilled white vinegar is 5%)
Yeasty 1.5% yeast slurry

(You'll note that these tend to be ~10X the threshold quoted by most
sources).  I beg anyone who has or gains any experience in using these
or other compounds to let me know about your experience.

Everyone should read Jay Hersh's & Steve Stroud's Dr. Beer postings from
way back when (http://hbd.org/brewery/library/DrBeer.html).
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:06:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: isenhour at uiuc.edu
Subject: acetaldehyde

Greg Kushmerek <grku at cayennesoft.nl> sez:

> I have a question about the threshold level of acetaldehyde: at how
> many parts per million does it generally become noticable?
> 
> Could someone further recommend a good resource for these kinds of
> answers?

I don't have the fulltext to check right now re: detection, but a snippet
I posted earlier, from ATIB digest might be useful

- ----clip----
Tom asks about acetaldehyde.  I thought we had a discussion about this
some time ago that mostly revolved around the metabolic pathway in yeast -
I cannot locate the postings.  I dont have a lot of time, but I tend to
think of this as a class of aldehydes, rather than just acetaldehyde as
there are probably 40 or so that have been detected in beer, but less that
show up in larger, or more importantly perceptable quantites - for
instance formaldehyde has been found but a VERY low levels.

Some originate from yeast, others from amino degradation (Strecker) during
the boil, and others from decarboxylation of acids. In general the longer
the aldehyde chain the more intense the aromatic, and they are detected as
green apple, varnish, cardboard, general green vegetation (including
cucumbers) and fried potatoes.  Aldehydes can increase in the bottle,
especially the noneals and are significantly involved in stale beer
perceptions.

If you really wanna get into it check out

Volatile Constituents of Beer
Charalambous, G.
Brewing Science, vol 2, 1981
ppg 167-254

- ----end of clip---

Other references that might be of use would be _Evaluating Beer_ although
I dont recall anything specific to PPM detection limits.  Also I'm pretty
sure there's a bit in _The Practical Brewer_ in the cellar operations
chapter (12?).  If you dont happen to have the book, but you do have a PDF
viewer then grab the chapter (if I guessed the right one!) at 
http://gaia.lis.uiuc.edu/~isenhour/MBAA/Ch12.pdf
Last but not least, I would check out _Developments in Food Science 3B_
Food Flavours, part B, The Flavour of Beverages, chapter 4 The Flavour of
Beer by M C Meilgaard and T L Peppard.  The _Handbook of Brewing_ should
have some info, and I remember seeing something about 8mg/L
acetaldehyde in Bud (which is detectable) in Fix's new book, and probably
Hough's text has some info (dont recall the title right now).

Be aware that from above, aldehydes are a class of chemicals, and that
individuals percieve at different thresholds.  It may well be that heavy
beers with a lot of other notes compete for perception relative to
something light like american pils.


- -- 
good luck,
 -john
- --
John Isenhour                              "unix is not your mother"
isenhour at uiuc.edu                   ASBC/MBAA/IBS/AHA/BJCP/AAAS/NYAS
"A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in 
human history with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila."
                     Mitch Ratliffe, _Technology Review_ April, 1992


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:19:20 -0500
From: "Joel Plutchak" <joel at bolt.atmos.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Historical beers post to BJD

in BJD #13, Al wrote:
>I suggested having a "Specialty" category which
>would have a number of subcategories for various styles.
 ...
>So, what I've proposed
>to the Committee, is that for Historical styles *only*, we *encourage*
>the entrant to include a reference (like a photocopy from Jackson,
>for example) along with the beer to help the judges judge the beer.
>
>Does that sound reasonable, or completely crazy?

Al-
   That sounds reasonable to me.  Even better might be having a
competition or two each year that concentrates on historical,
neglected, or experimental styles (sorta like the AHA club-only
competitions, but I don't know if the BJCP wants to get into
sponsoring competitions).  The judges could even be prepped by
having the organizer(s) do a little extra work to get style
sheets to the judge pool in advance, and/or have a little
seminar immediately prior to judging.
   I suspect you could find enough interested judges in the
Midwest region to hold such a competition somewhere around here.
All we'd need is brewers.
- --
Joel


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:31:08 EDT
From: MaltyDog at aol.com
Subject: Beers That Fall Between the Cracks

There has been some discussion about  specialty 
beers on this forum in recent issues, and I thought
I'd pass on for discussion an idea our club was
considering for our next contest to cover some 
other beers that don't fit in style categories.

This would be "Classic Other Style." The point of this 
category would be that the beer was modelled after an
exisiting commercial style, which for whatever reason,
doesn't fit into the slot of exisiting categories. For example,
a Baltic Porter, or a Adelaide Sparkling (i.e., Cooper's) Ale,
or several of the more exotic categories.

The brewer would have to specify in advance what style the
beer was modelled on, and the club would have to be especially 
strict about not letting in last minute entries. The judges would
be informed ahead of time which commercial examples the beers
were based on, so they could do a little studying up at their local
bars or stores.

It seems a workable way of dealing with a interesting group of beers,
and it would be a lot of fun to judge. Or course, you'd have to get 
judges that know what they're doing, but then you're always supposed
to do that, aren't you?....

Anway, food for thought. I'd be interested in hearing what others
have to say about the concept.

Bill Coleman
MaltyDog at aol.com


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:10:04 -0700
From: Russ Wigglesworth <russ.wigglesworth at radiology.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Style Certification

While I certainly qualify as one of the overworked BJCP staff I would like
to say that I too support the concept of judges' being certified in
specific styles. Unfortunately it would be a lot more work and even if we
do try it we certainly would not start with the very obscure styles
mentioned in Bruce's comments.

Currently the best way to get feedback on such styles is to put together a
group of known "experts" in the style and get them to try the beers. To
that end, the BJCP could have "voluntary self style certification". Judges
who feel they are proficient in the rarer styles could identify themselves
to me and I could note as much in the database. These judges should also
procure the endorsement of a number of other judges/brewers who feel the
judge-in-question has the claimed proficency. Then, when someone is looking
for feedback on these styles, they would simply send in a request to me and
I would return the name, etc. of a handfull of judges who would be willing
to sample and comment on the beers. We used to do something similar in the
early days of the CI$ Beer Forum. Once or twice I assembled 3 or 4 judges
to whom I had sent my beers and met them in a chat room for an hour and
they all tasted and commented on my efforts.

I have cc'd the BoD with this. No doubt they will kick it around and decide
if it is worth trying.

RW...

Russ Wigglesworth - Program Administrator
Beer Judge Certification Program
PO Box 751271 - Petaluma CA 94975
707-769-0425 (h) 415-502-1070 (w)


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:07:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: vectors

I was actually kidding about the use of the term "Vector area" and
as Greg reminded me in private email, "vector" can mean "an organism
that transmits a pathogen" (Webster). I'd rather not complicate things
with another new meaning, so let's come up with something better.  At
worst, we could always refer to them as the "checkboxes at the bottom."

Al.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 15:28:10 -0400
From: "Schlein, Andrew" <ASchlein at Queens.Lib.NY.US>
Subject: On being an expert.

Bruce wrote:

>Can you as a judge honestly state that you are 100% solid on every
style of
>beer out there??  How will my beer do if I enter a ROTBUSSER? or a
ZUUR beer?
>Jean De Clerck mentions a beer called "Uytzet des Flandres" (A Textbook
of
>Brewing, pg. 557, vol#1 )  How can my "Diest" or "L'Orge d'Anver's" be
judged
>by a person whose total Belgium Beer experience consists of several
bottles of
>Chimay?
>
While I heartily agree that you cannot expect that level of
sophistication from the majority of BJCP judges, I also believe that
anyone attempting to brew an Uytzet des Flandres would also know more
about its flaws than most Belgian judges...in fact probably more than
anyone save another Uytzet-maven. 

If we continue to do our best to be honest and help where we can, no one
can fault us for not being perfikt.

Andrew N. Schlein, Ph.D. 
<aschlein at queens.lib.ny.us>


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:13:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: ar568 at freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: Acetaldehyde Detection

>From: Greg Kushmerek <grku at cayennesoft.nl>
>Subject: Acetaldehyde Threshold and other fun chemical queries

 ...
>I have a question about the threshold level of acetaldehyde: at how
>many parts per million does it generally become noticable?

>Could someone further recommend a good resource for these kinds of
>answers?
 
    The threshold for acetaldehyde is 150 ppb (parts per billion). This is
from the beer flavour wheel developed by the American Society of Brewing
Chemists (ASBC) and the European Brewing Congress (EBC). 
     The beer flavour wheel has recently appeared in 'All About Beer
Magazine' (Vol.19, No.3- July 1998).


- --
      "Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
                                           Aaron Shaw
                                           Ottawa, Canada


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:25:57 EDT
From: Reegleyj at aol.com
Subject: Styles & Categories

On 7/6/98 Russ Wigglesworth wrote:

" "Specialty and Experimental Beer" is not a "style" it is a "category" and

as such can be added to any competition roster. There is little to define

in such a category save that beers in it do not fit into any of the other

established categories in a given competition and that possibly they will

include some unusual ingredient and/or brewing technique.


"While the Style Guidelines may be used to determine the entry categories

for competitions, this need not generally be so. The "styles" should define

the beers which are included in "categories" but not all competitions need

to include all the "styles" which are defined. The selection of the

categories (groupings of styles to which awards will be given) should be up

to the individual sponsors and organizers. There may well be events put on

which do not have a place for some styles, generally the more obscure

styles, and especially at medium to small events."


The distinction between "styles" and "categories" is irrelevant to the point I
was trying to make. AHA publications refer to "Category Descriptions" and a
"Style Guidelines Chart", the BJCP refers to "Style Guidelines" and a "Style
Chart". The point is that the AHA provides a useful category to enter certain
beers which the BJCP does not. The "Fruit Beer" and "Spice/Herb/Vegetable
Beer" categries on the BJCP Style Guidelines and Style Chart are not "styles"
in any meaningful sense of the word; they are places to enter beers that don't
fit into the other categories, but which contain certain ingredients. There is
another class of beers which don't fit the other categories, not because of
ingredients but because of methodology (sour-mashing for example). The AHA
"Specialty and Experimental Beer" category provides a place to enter these,
the BJCP does not.

Obviously, not all competitions, especially smaller ones, accept entries in
all categories. More often they just specify AHA or BJCP style categories, and
combine those which don't get enough entries to rate a flight to themselves.
If the BJCP adds a category similar to the AHA one, then people will have a
place to enter beers brewed with unusual methods, and even if the category is
combined with others, the judges will have some guidance on how to judge these
beers. If the BJCP does not add such a category then people will not be able
to enter certain beers, or will be forced to enter them in inappropriate
categories, and will continue to get inappropriate remarks from the judges, as
I did.

Brad Reeg    


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:28:37 -0500
From: bernardch at mindspring.com
Subject: BJCP exam Syllabus - Thank You!

Just a quick note to thank everyone that emailed be copies of the BJCP exam
prep syllabuses (syllabii?) that I requested in a BJD last week.  Most study
programs were along my thoughts of a topic discussion, focus on a style,
then tastings.  I'll take what looks good from everyone's contribution and
create a tailored program for our group.

We finally got enough people committed to schedule an exam, so now the hard
work begins.

Chuck
Bernardch at mindspring.com
Music City Brewers, NAshville TN - Music City USA
http://www.theporch.com/~homebrew


------------------------------
End of Beer Judge Digest #14, 07/08/98
*************************************
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