Return-Path: judge-request at brew Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.26]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06761 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from twins.rs.itd.umich.edu (twins.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.39]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA28205 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from root at localhost) by twins.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.6/2.5) with X.500 id AAA22888; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:43:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brew (brew.oeonline.com [206.31.224.50]) by twins.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.6/2.5) with ESMTP id AAA22879; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from root at localhost) by brew (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA27135 for realjudge; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:03:06 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:03:06 -0400 Message-Id: <199806240403.AAA27135 at brew> To: judge at hbd.org From: judge-request at hbd.org (Request Address Only - No Articles) Reply-to: judge at hbd.org (Posting Address Only - No Requests) Errors-to: judge-request at hbd.org Precedence: bulk Subject: Beer Judge Digest #2 (June 24, 1998) Beer Judge Digest #2 Wed 24 June 1998 FORUM ON BEER JUDGING AND RELATED ISSUES Digest Custodian: custodian at hbd.org Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Beer Judge Digest. URL: http://www.oeonline.com Contents: RE: Exam beers (George_De_Piro) Re: Beer Judge Digest #1 (June 23, 1998) (Jeremy Bergsman) Call for judges (Jeremy Bergsman) HOMEBREW COMPETITION WINNER (Norman Dickenson) DMS/Exam Beers (Gordon Strong) Re: Exam Beers (jwilson) Prune/plum notes (Robert Arguello) new club-only competitions? (Gordon Strong) Exam Beers ("Bill Pfeiffer") Descriptor examples - commercial (Some Guy) Send articles for __publication_only__ to judge at hbd.org (Articles are published in the order they are received.) If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to judge-request at hbd.org. **SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL **ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!! IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail! YOU MUST BE A BEER JUDGE OR BE REFERRED BY ONE TO SUBSCRIBE!!! You MUST be a subscriber in order to post articles!!! Requests for back issues will be ignored. CUSTODIANS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (custodian at hbd.org) "Not a publication of the BJCP" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:54:55 -0700 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com Subject: RE: Exam beers Hi all, Mark asks why exam beers do not usually include an unblended, well known, commercial "ringer." There are a few reasons that I can think of: 1. High probability of the beer being recognized. 2. Unless the proctor got somebody to help by choosing and pouring the beers, they'll know exactly what to expect. I don't care how objective you are trying to be, it will effect your comments. 3. There is no guarantee that the beer will be in good shape, anyway. Most imported beers are not in good condition when they reach our shores, and they will vary from region to region. Micros with wide distribution may suffer the same problem. In the two exams that I have administered (and proctored) I have used a "3rd party pourer", and provided them with a supply of homebrew (from various sources) and instructed them to do with them as they see fit. It is up to them to use the beer straight or blend them with other beers (commercial or homebrew). I tell them to make at least one beer good for style. Other than that, they do as they want. In this way, I think the exam is most fair for the participants. I and the other proctor are just as blind as they are to the beer's identity. As a grader, you have 2 proctors' and a bunch of examinees' descriptions to base your views on. That should do it. Knowing the beers that were used will only serve to skew graders opinions. If straight Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is presented during the exam, the grader will likely have a strong opinion about the characters that should have been discerned by the examinees and proctors, despite having not been there to taste that sample. That would most likely hurt the objectivity that is desirable in the grading process. Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:17:28 -0700 From: Jeremy Bergsman Subject: Re: Beer Judge Digest #1 (June 23, 1998) GDP writes: >I have learned that I am fairly sensitive to DMS. Because of this, I >don't feel entirely comfortable telling somebody there is too much in >their beer, especially if it's a pilsner or other light lager. As an >example, I have found Brooklyn Brewery's Pilsner (draft version) to be >pretty corn-like. To me it seems like it may cross the line of >"acceptable" DMS, but having never had a fresh Pilsner Urquell, I >don't know. I perceive it as having more DMS than Spaten Pils, or the >Victory Prima Pils. Some of my friends perceive it as "sulfury," but >not distinctly corn-like. Two points: It would seem to me that the only way to know how much is acceptable, regardless of ones sensitivity, is by tasting the commercial examples that establish the acceptable levels. On the second point I'd like to hear some other opinions. In my fairly extensive beer doctoring experience, I have never found DMS to be "sulfury." I believe that this would always be due to H2S. Interestingly, I wrestled with George's exact question this weekend at the CA state fair commercial competition. In the BOS most of the judges were in favor of a N. Ger. Pils. Besides not being very bitter it had a good bit of DMS. I thought too much, but obviously they did not. - -- Jeremy Bergsman jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:26:26 -0700 From: Jeremy Bergsman Subject: Call for judges This is a call for judges and/or stewards for the amateur brewing competition held in conjunction with the Small Brewers Festival of California, which takes place in downtown Mountain View each summer. It is a BJCP sanctioned competition. I welcome BJCP and non-BJCP judges. Novices who wish to learn about judging will be placed on panels with at least 2 experienced judges--it's a great way to learn. The main judging will be at 9 AM on Saturday August 1st, at the Tied House in Mountain View. We will have a preliminary judging the weekend before, time and place TBA. Let me know if you'd like to do it that weekend and if so, when. Also there will probably be numerous prelim rounds arranged informally over the last 2 weeks of July, so if you want to judge by all means contact me and I'm sure I can give you the opportunity to judge. BTW the best of show will take place at the festival on the 8th, so if you're interested in that let me know that too. BJCP judges only for that please, but I will choose one less experienced judge for the panel. By way of inducement, all judges will get a tasting kit to the festival and participants at the bigger final and prelim rounds will get lunch. I will also offer some judge education activities and we even have some surprise activities in the works that may interest you. Also we will be using the new BJCP scoresheet which you can see at www.bjcp.org. Check out the coversheet and judge directions sheet at the same URL for an aid in understanding the changes we made to the sheet. - -- Jeremy Bergsman jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:24:08 -0800 From: Norman Dickenson Subject: HOMEBREW COMPETITION WINNER Subject: Time: 7:12 AM OFFICE MEMO HOMEBREW COMPETITION WINNERS Date: 6/23/98 In BJD #1, Martin posted the results of the NNERHC Competition. Congratulations to all of the winners for their successes! I have a question, though, which intrigues me. In 23 classes, Tom O'Connor won 17 ribbons and a BOS runner up; and Clifford Timpson win 12 ribbons and a BOS!! Holy S___! How prolific can one be? Aside from the obvious question about how full time homebrewers earn a living, I am curious how one can maintain such a large inventory of different beers in one's cellar and hope that most are even slightly in good enough condition to fare well in a competition? Is this a factor of the number of entries, or a lack of skills by the rest of the entrants. My comments aren't meant to demean or to deminish Tom and Clifford's phenomenal success, but to determine if they know something I don't know about keeping beer in good condition. Cheers, Norman Dickenson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:28:33 -0400 From: Gordon Strong Subject: DMS/Exam Beers I too welcome back a judge resource. People had been using HBD as a substitute, but the flames are always too high (witness recent discussions about AHA NHC judging and criticism of those who give of their time online to help others). George De Piro asked about DMS in pilsners. I always thought that pilsners were prone to DMS because of the malt used, and believed it was a measure of the brewer's art to see how well they could control that natural tendancy. Like George, I think a little is OK but it can easily reach objectionable levels. I'd like to add a twist: what is the best way to explain the difference between DMS and the corn flavor from the use of maize as an adjunct? I find pre-pro pils and some american light or premium lagers (e.g. Red Dog) have that "sweet corn" flavor which is different from the DMS "cooked corn". Is there a better way to differentiate them? Mark Johnston asked about exam beers. I'm of mixed opinion. It is easier on the graders if the exam beers are commercial styles because you can understand and calibrate the proctors. However, I believe it is fairer on the entrants if you give them all homebrew (in the proper category). That's what they'll get in competition, so why not judge them on a "real world" experience? That's how Scott Bickham provided the beers when I took the test, and I thanked him for it. Most of the beers were so-so and had some problems, but that's your average competition beer. In that case, I think as a grader you have to trust the comments of the proctor. In all but one case, I've found the proctor comments to be excellent examples of proper scoresheets. I think it works. Gordon Strong Beavercreek, OH strongg at earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:39:16 -0700 (PDT) From: jwilson at socrates.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Exam Beers Hi all, I know when i took the exam, more than 2 years ago, there were definately commercial examples. The first beer we judged (Martin Lodahl was the procter who did a great job, BTW) was a Coors Light, "undoctored." We then judged a "doctored" Samuel Adams (ie "Oregon") IPA, followed by a California Common homebrew. Martin finished with an "undoctored" Guiness. They were all judged to their prospective categories, but i think it is also a good idea to judge them outside of their categories. Just a thought. BTW, i was unaware that other exams were using nothing but homebrew, that must be hell for graders. Ciao! Tony ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:07:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Arguello Subject: Prune/plum notes Judging the finals at the California State Fair this last weekend and was assigned to Dopplebocks for one flight. I became a bit confused at one point as one of the other judges on the panel dinged one beer pretty hard due to having what he felt was inappropriate prune/plum/raisin flavors. The confusion for me was born of my taste notes for a few commercial dopplebocks that definitely contain prune flavors.... "Celebrator" by Inselkammer certainly comes to mind as having quite agressive prune/plum flavors. The BJCP style guidlines do not talk about plum or prune flavors specifically so I am wondering if these flavor notes are appropriate or not, and if so, how profound can they be? On a side note, I have been trying to generate some plum in my own Barleywine without success. Any suggestions on grain additions or yeasts that would help? "Dances With Worts" Robert Arguello Davis, California robertac at calweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:35:12 -0400 From: Gordon Strong Subject: new club-only competitions? Has anyone heard about the deadlines and ship-to locations for the next set of AHA club-only competitions? Recalling the problems earlier this year, I thought I'd start asking early. The AHA web site has no information, and August is getting closer... Gordon Strong Beavercreek, OH strongg at earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:11:30 -0400 From: "Bill Pfeiffer" Subject: Exam Beers Mark Johnston asked about beers used in BJCP exams. My experiences as an examinee at the first judge exam, as a BJCP Board member representing both the AHA and HWBTA groups and as one of the first persons other than BJCP Directors authorized to administer exams allows me a little latitude to speak on this subject. We have gone through the gamut of what and how to do this from the beginning. When the program was first started, we used commercial beers that may or may not have been "doctored" with flaws. From there we went to a few commercials and a few homebrews. Now, exam administrators are RECOMMENDED to use only homebrews that have not been intentionally doctored with flaws. This presented a dilemma in a set of exams I recently graded. The exam administrator apparently took a bottle of commercial beer in clear bottle and set it on a window ledge to be exposed to sunlight for a period of a week or two before the exam. The proctors, knowing of this procedure, both recorded "skunky" aroma. However, none of the examinees detected skunkiness. The question must be asked, did the proctors recognize this because they were expected to find it? In my exams, I take homebrews from two or three different brewers, pour the two or three brewed to the same style into a pitcher and pour into glasses for exam judging. I want to have the examinees experience a real-life judging situation...in a competition you never know what you will get...maybe a gusher, maybe flat, maybe oxidized, maybe etc. I only use classic styles, no fruit or spiced beers, and am usually able to get an ample supply of potential beers from members of my local brew club as well as from competition directors who have beers left that didn't make the Best-of-Show rounds. Experienced judges, acting as proctors (I can't imagine having an inexperienced judge as a proctor) should be able to provide enough feedback on their score sheets to help the readers/graders to more accurately know what the beer was like even though they never tasted it. The key for the proctors is EXPRESSING SENSATIONS, just as we strive to get judges to do at competitions. If the proctors don't have complete score sheets they did not do their job. If the proctors didn't do their job, the exam administrator didn't do his/her job. Hope this helps....private e-mail welcome on this subject. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:16:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Some Guy Subject: Descriptor examples - commercial Greetings! Anyone have a handy list of readily-available commercial beers demonstrating some of our descritpors? Not just diacetyl (which I am not too sensitive to, it would appear), DMS, clove, etc; but also "toasty" vs "caramelly"; roast vs black, biscuity, etc. Not that I have difficulty with all of these (though I do with several - like 'grassy" vs Vegetable, for instance), but having a ready list of "calibration brews" would surely help us all. If not a compiled list, respond to me in private reagrding your favorite "calibrators" (Hmmm. Perhaps the name of my next doppelbock...) and I'll compile a list. See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at oeonline.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor at hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." ------------------------------ End of Beer Judge Digest #2, 06/24/98 ************************************* -------