Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr7.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr7.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.69]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA13068 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:31:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.37]) by srvr7.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA15421 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) with X.500 id KAA20949; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uu6.psi.com by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) with SMTP id KAA20917; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA25234 for spencer at umich.edu; Thu, 26 Jun 97 10:31:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA08394 for judge-digest-outgoing; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:59:49 -0400 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:59:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199706261359.JAA08394 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1462 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Thursday, 26 June 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1462 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: NHC judges Recipes, why not have the judges see? Big Beers Various things ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bryan L. Gros" Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:48:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: NHC judges Bill Giffin writes: >The AHA NHC over the past few years has had a majority of the winners out >of style most of them on the BIG side. More BJCP judges are involved in the >NHC then any other, and more then half of the winners are out of style. > >Frequently we as judges, judge far more beers then we can adequately judge >due to lack of judges, and time constants. How can we be so sure that the >beers we judge after judging 10 to 20 beer prior to the one that we are now >judging is in style? Simply we can't. > I agree with this a lot. Many of the "big beer" complaints are based on the winners of the NHC. And this competition almost always requires judges to evaluate more beers in less time than is recommended. Or possible. Could there possibly be a connection??? - Bryan grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu Nashville, TN ------------------------------ From: Bill Giffin Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:22:27 -0500 Subject: Recipes, why not have the judges see? Top of the morning to ye all, I understand that you shouldn't see the recipe if the brewer's name is on the form, but what if it wasn't? If the judges were allowed to see the recipe for the beer couldn't they better help the brewer? So why not cut off all the information that would identify the brewer and let the judges see the recipe. Perhaps a better way would have a match brewing competition where everyone was required to brew each style to exactly the same recipe. That way the judges would know what the recipe for that style was, therefore would be better able to judge how well the beer was brewed. Might even be helpful the educate judges! Bill ------------------------------ From: CTERENZI at aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Big Beers It was written: >>> If you are concerned about styles then make the guideline, whatever you use, part of the rules. Disqualify any beer that the judges feel is out side of the guide lines rather then rewarding these out of style beers with the ribbons. >> What if the beer in question fits no particular style but is an excellent beer...... should a beer like this have been entered as a classic style specialty beer, an experimental beer(if using AHA guidelines) ?? By using the styles as godspel rather than guidelines we lose focus of the overall aim of homebrewing and judging...to make great beers...Under the "rigid" guidelines setting beers like Sierra Nevada Celebration, Rogue Shakespeare Stout, Old Foghorn and a host of others would be disqualified from ribbons because they do not fit a particular style. I feel styles should be a used as a guide, not to constrain creativity . Most of the American Style beers are recently new additions to the styles list (American Pale Ale, Amber Ale, IPA, Barleywine, Brown Ale, Classic Pilsner to name a few). I realize there must be a careful balance between rigidity and flexibility or we would be facing 100 different styles but automatically disqualifing a beer because doesn't fit the styles given is not the answer. Chris Terenzi ------------------------------ From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 15:49:28 -0700 Subject: Various things Hi all, First, to make my self perfectly clear, I was NOT suggesting that judges should see the recipe of a beer before or during evaluation of the beer! I seemed to confuse at least one person. I was saying that some people seem to think that they can evaluate a beer simply by looking at its recipe. Second, Jeff talks about beer-geeks becoming disinterested in the subtle styles as they get more into the hobby of brewing and evaluating beer. In my case, this is not true. I find that I am developing a remarkable appreciation for more subtle styles, such as Munich Helles. When I first discovered good beer, I thought that anything lighter than Spaten Optimator wasn't worth the liver damage! Heck, I used to drink EKU-28 for refreshment! I am much broader in my appreciation of more subtle flavors now. How about the rest of you? Third, Bill Giffin writes about out-of-style beers winning their categories. He talks about the problems of palate fatigue and knowledge of beer: >Rather then admit and solve the problems we have as judges we seem to >ignore the problem by saying everything is OK. I don't ignore it, nor does anybody participating in this forum! That's what we're doing here; educating ourselves. I try my best to ward off palate fatigue, and try very hard to keep balance in mind when judging the styles that are prone to being too big (and all styles, for that matter). I am not perfect, I recognize this, and I do my best. Bill also writes: >We need to stop depending on the exam for the only means required for >advancement. We need peer review. We need a method of qualifying >judges by category. Judges need to have continuing education as a >requirement to continue to judge. This would be great in an ideal world, but we all volunteer to do this. There are too few judges at many competitions now. How many would leave the program if it became more like work? I agree that there are a LOT of poor judges out there, and it would be great if they could be educated further to ensure high-quality judging. After all, entrants are paying to have their beer evaluated in a constructive way. Many people stop entering contests because of the low quality of evaluation they receive. That does not serve us well. I put my E-mail address on every sheet I fill out. One person has sent me feedback recently. I found it very useful. If you get sheets back with an E-mail address, take a minute to write the judge and discuss the beer with them, even if you are happy with the evaluation. It will help the judge to grow. Write the BJCP if there is no E-mail address on the sheet if you are particularly happy or upset about judge quality. They will get in touch with the judge. Perhaps it should be mandatory to put E-mail addresses, when available, on score sheets. This might make some judges take the task a bit more seriously, and make sure that their comments justify the score they give. Have fun! George De Piro ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1462 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.