Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr7.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr7.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.69]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA16919 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:45:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.36]) by srvr7.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA25495 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) with X.500 id HAA23551; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uu6.psi.com by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) with SMTP id HAA23525; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA09597 for spencer at umich.edu; Tue, 24 Jun 97 07:45:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA00897 for judge-digest-outgoing; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:06:02 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:06:02 -0400 Message-Id: <199706241106.HAA00897 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1460 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Tuesday, 24 June 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1460 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: 1997 Canadian Amateur Brewer's Association's Great Canadian Homebrew Competition Results Roggens and such Beers too big for style Re: BOS beers big beers Bigger is Better and How clear should a stout be? big beer bias no bull Rye, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Craig J. Pinhey" Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 23:32:11 -0400 Subject: 1997 Canadian Amateur Brewer's Association's Great Canadian Homebrew Competition Results This year, we had our first drop-offs in Calgary and Halifax, and were = helped by local sponsors (Wine Mine in Calgary, and The Brew Guys in = Halifax-Dartmouth), who shipped entries to our central sponsor, Upper = Canada, who also received Ontario drop-offs and were very helpful in = providing the judging site.=20 Class 1 - Canadian Beers=09 Gold, with a Canadian Ale called "Spring Ale", Gord Nevery from = Missisauga, Ont. Silver, with a Canadian Lager called "Saazy Summer Lager", Ray Krick = from CAMRA Ottawa, Ont. Bronze, with a Canadian Lager called "North American Premium Lager", Ian = Crook from Delta, BC. Class 2 - Continental Pilsners Gold, with a German Lager called "Rhineland Pilsner", Peter Mullowney of = Scarborough, Ont., from the Beerded Brewers. Silver, with a Czech Pils, Adam Mueller of Halifax, NS, from the = Brewnosers.=20 Bronze, with a German Lager called "Dorty Worty", Joanne Anderson of the = Collingwood Brew Club. Best Novice, with a Continental Lager called "Rob's Brew", Robert = Beletic from Kitchener, Ont. Class 3/4 - German Regional Specialty Dark Lagers collapsed with German = Regional Specialty Ales=20 Gold, with a Munich Dunkel, Ian Crook. Silver, with a Vienna called "Very Old Vienna Lager", Walter Scott of = Dundas, Ont., from teh Burlington Brew Crew. Bronze, with a Vienna called "R. King's Vienna", Peter Mullowney. Class 5 - Bock Gold, with a Helles Bock called "Hoppy Bock", Bill George from Toronto, = Ont. Silver, with a Traditional Bock, Sean King of Dartmouth, NS, from the = Brewnosers. Bronze, with a Traditional Bock called "I'll Be Bock", Martin Sewell = from Toronto, Ont, from the Eastenders. Class 6 - Wheat Beers Gold, with a Wit Beer called "Mississippi Wit", Dwight Barkley of = Nepean< ont, from teh Mississippi Brewers. Silver, with a Weizen, Bill George. Bronze, with a Weizenbock called "St. Robert's Dunkel Weizenbock", Lorne = Romano, of Rexdael, Ont., from CABAL. Best Novice, with a Wit called "Tangerine Dream", John Tyler of Toronto, = Ont. Class 7 - Pale Ales Gold, with an English Pale Ale called "Paleface", Ross Reynolds from = Peterborough, Ont. Silver, with an English Pale Ale called "Balmy Pale Ale", John Tyler. Bronze, with an IPA called "Fool's Ale", Dennis Barsalo from Dorval, = Que. Best Novice, John Tyler. Class 8 - English Bitter Gold, with an ESB called "Hide's Pride Bitter", Ian Mclaren of Edmonton, = AB, from the Edmonton Homebrewer's Guild. Silver, with an ESB called "Slate Brewery ESB", Jeffrey Pinhey of = Halifax, NS, from the Brewnosers. Bronze, with an Ordinary Bitter called "You Bitter You Bitter You Bet", = Walter Scott. Class 9 - Brown Ale Gold, with a North American Brown called "North Bendale Brown", Ian = Johnson of Scarbourough, Ont. Silver, with an English Brown called "Elbro Nerkte Plus", Joanne = Anderson. Bronze, with a North American Brown called "Loyalist Brown Ale", Ray = Krick. Class 10 - Stout Gold, with an Oatmeal Stout, Robert Jones of Toronto, Ont. Silver, with a Dry Stout called "Dreams of Dublin", Adam Mueller. Bronze, with an Oatmeal Stout called "Mississippi Stout", Dwight = Barkley. Best Novice, with a Dry Stout called "Pink Nose Stout", Dennis Barsalo. Class 11 - UK Strong Ales Gold, with a Barley Wine called "Montecristo Barley Wine", Lorne Romano. Silver, with a Barley Wine called "Bedson's Barley Wine", Ian MacLaren. Bronze, with an Old Ale called "Old Particular", Martine Sewell. Best Novice, with an Old Ale called "Witches Brew", John Tyler. Class 12 - Belgian Specialty Gold, with a Lambic Kriek, Robert Jones. Silver, with a Raspberry Kriek called "Raspberry Rapture", Martin = Sewell. Bronze, with a Belgian Strong Ale, Sean King and Stephen Haynes of = Dartmouth, NS, from the Brewnosers. Class 13/14 - Fruit Beers collapsed with Specialty Beers Gold, with a Fruit beer called "Raspberry Wheat", Joanne Anderson. Silver, with a Fruit beer called "Raspberry Rave", Ross Reynolds. Bronze, with a Fruit beer called "Brunet Framboise", Lorne Romano. Class 15/16 - Brew On Premise Ales collapsed with Brew On Premise (BOP) = Lagers Gold, with a Brown Ale called "Brown Cow", Si Cow of Scarborough, Ont. Silver, with an IPA called "Aqua Rama", John Fournier of Toronto, Ont. Bronze, with a North American Brown called "Irish Bitter", John Pellet = of Toronto, Ont. Best Novice, with an IPA called "Canadiandia", John Emeny of London, = Ont. Class 17 - Lookalike - UPPER CANADA WHEAT=20 Gold, Robert MacIntosh of Pickering, Ont., from the Eastenders Best Club CABAL, in a tie with Brewnosers (decided by most Gold medals). And finally, drum roll please................. BEST OF SHOW Gold - Bill George with his Helles Bock!! Congratulations Bill! Silver - Lorne Romano with his Barley Wine. Bronze - Robert Jones with his Oatmeal Stout. Congratulations to all, and a big thanx to our sponsors, to our BJCP = judges, and to my co-organizers, Dennis Kinvig and Richard Oluszak. = Hope to see you all in our next CABA Competition, "ALL ABOUT ALES", = scheduled this Fall. Check out our soon to be appearing Webpage and = future CABA Times issues for more details. Craig Pinhey =3D8) =20 ------------------------------ From: folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:01:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Roggens and such Chuck Hanning wrote: >>Regarding the BJCP Style guide - In what category would one enter >>a beer designed to emphasize the use of Rye? This is not all that >>rare, but doesn't seem to be accomodated. >I've wondered why there isn't a roggen catagory (since it is a >defined style in germany), and perhaps another in which any type of >rye used (malted or flaked) in a beer to add some more depth. This >seems like it should be there. Comments ? I agree with Chuck that it would be nice to have a rye/classic and rye/generic category, although I wonder if there would be enough interest to keep it viable. It would be worth a shot, rye is fun to play with. What I was trying to point out, though, is that there is no specialty category in the BJCP guidelines. Regarding the Big Beer syndrome - I do think it's improving, An English Mild won BOS at the Spirit of Free Beer! What I perceive is not so much a tendency to reward the bigger styles, but rather to reward the beers that push the envelope within a style. The hoppiest American Brown wins, the bitterest IPA, and so forth. That said, I also seem to see a change/improvement lately in that area. Maybe it's just a limited sample, or maybe our discussions here are doing some good. Cheers, Al Folsom ------------------------------ From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:28:11 -0700 Subject: Beers too big for style Hi all, I think some folks have missed Bill's point. He was not reviving the old "big beer styles win competitions" thread; rather I believe he was saying that beers too big for style win their categories. Well, there probably is some truth to this. First, their is palate fatigue. I know that after I have judged a dozen or so American Pale Ales, I'm shot. Beers at the end of the flight must really be bigger to get the attention of my numb palate. I am conscious of this, though, and try to minimize these effects by taking breaks, etc. Also, just because an "over-the-top" beer may win, it doesn't mean the judges didn't comment that it was indeed over-the-top! Perhaps it was a bit out of style, but not as flawed as the competitors. There is danger in the habit of reading recipes and extrapolating the beer's aroma and flavor. Assuming that the brewer gave an accurate recipe (a big assumption), you have no idea if their hops were old, if the malt was fresh or crushed two weeks before mashing, etc. These are all factors that will effect the beer's character in very noticeable ways. The only way to know a beer is to drink it! As for the notion that people purposely make beers too big for style just to do well at competitions, I don't buy it. Maybe there are a few people out there that love competing that much, but I think most people brew for themselves and their friends. They just want to make beer that tastes like they want it to. If that happens to be a bit larger than the guidelines, so be it. Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) ------------------------------ From: Scott Bickham Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:28:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: BOS beers Bill Giffin writes: > > The problem truly is that no one pays much attention to the guideline > > whether you use the AHA or the BJCP'S. Judges give the first place to > > beers which are grossly outside the guidelines and brewers know that to > > win, the beer has to be bigger then life. Thanks to the propagation of this myth, it has become nearly impossible for big beers to do well in the best of show judging. Yes, big or asssertively flavored beers such as weizens do stand out, but many judges now do not want to be accused of the big beer bias. But I suppose I should be content with brewing a barleywine that regularly scores in the mid 40s even if it gets knocked out of the BOS round by a mild. Good brewing, Scott ------------------------------ From: "Bryan L. Gros" Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:30:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: big beers It is easy for a light beer to stand out in a light category. If a Wit beer or Kolsch or dry stout is an outstanding example, it may certainly take best of show. It is not so easy for a light beer to stand out in a "broader" category; in styles like APA, ESB, sweet stout etc., a bigger beer will stand out. I think that many of us on this list who have discussed this problem before may be more aware of it while judging. Other judges may not be aware of their bias. - Bryan grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu Nashville, TN ------------------------------ From: Dennis Waltman Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:08:16 -0700 Subject: Bigger is Better and How clear should a stout be? I've been at a few competitions and have heard judges praise the subtle characters of beers. >From a point of my beers entered, I sometimes wonder on American Pale Ales (and probably American Amber Ales, but it is too recently a style split for me), American Brown Ales, and English Bitters. The latter two suffer from the "how high is high" syndrome. I'll use the Atlanta spring pollen count as an analogy. The pollen count on the scale has everything over 120 as extremely high, yet Atlanta seems to float around 2000 in the spring, even occasionally going into the 3000s for a week or so (I think this year it topped 4000). So one could say the the extremely high range is 120-4000. Some people in the American Ale and Brown Ale are used to more killer hops than others, and on the low end of high they suffer. My WAG. Bitters are a tough case, I'm not sure how many ordinary bitters one can get in the US. ESB and the ocassional Best Bitter, yes, but ordinaries (if you know of some I'd certainly want it). Most recently I entered a Classic Dry Stout (this year's NHC) that I worried had perhaps too high a starting gravity to fit in the category correctly. The score sheets came back, and one criticism was the beer was to thin, not quite strong enough for the style. A it probably illustrates that a little bigger is better; the beer scored a 34, and was at the upper end of the gravity guidelines (IMO). Dennis Waltman The other interesting comment was one judge, the BJCP one, deducted 1.5 points because it lacked clarity, it was not clear. I was under in impression (probably falsely) that dry stouts were supposed to be very dark and opaque. I have judged in several competitions and I would like to think my recollection of the conversations of the "bigger is better" in previous judge-digest or homebrew-digest has brought me up in thinking about this. ------------------------------ From: "Raymond Estrella" Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 18:47:12 UT Subject: big beer bias no bull Hello to all, I have been following the JD for a year now and have decided to jump in. Bob Paolino jumps on Bill Griffin, >Judges give the first place to beers which are grossly outside the >guidelines and brewers know that to win, the beer has to be bigger >then life. >>I keep hearing this line, and I keep finding so many counter examples. >>Last weekend in judged at the University of Illinois' BUZZ competition and >>we gave BOS to a dry stout. Earlier in the day I judged stouts and in the >>mini-BOCategory round, it beat out an Imperial. Yes, the dry stout beat the Imperial stout. That is not the question, (or the statement in this case). What was the gravity of that dry stout? Bill is not saying that IPAs beat out Pale Ales, he is saying that the Pale Ales that win are in the IPA gravity range. We have discussed this a lot at our club meetings. Look at the last couple of years AHA winners, and you will see that they are all at or above the high end for their style guidelines. And are you not the BIG and BIGGER Ale competition guy? Would a dry stout no matter how good make it there? Ray Estrella Cottage Grove MN ray-estrella at msn.com *******Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew.******* ------------------------------ From: Tom Fitzpatrick Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:16:27 -0500 Subject: Rye, etc. Chuck and Alan write: - ----------------------------------------------------- From: Chuck R Hanning Date: 20 Jun 97 10:04:05 EDT Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1458 On friday june 20, Alan folsom wrote: >Regarding the BJCP Style guide - In what category would one enter >a beer designed to emphasize the use of Rye? This is not all that >rare, but doesn't seem to be accomodated. I've wondered why there isn't a roggen catagory (since it is a defined style in germany), and perhaps another in which any type of rye used (malted or flaked) in a beer to add some more depth. This seems like it should be there. Comments ? - ------------------------------------------------------ The lack of a Specialty category in the BJCP Guidelines has been brought to my attention numerous times since they were released earlier this year. The BJCP Style Committee should take care of this issue for next year. The Rye beer unfortunately doesn't really have a place in the current Guidelines. Competitions in the Northeast have used these Guidelines for a few years ... Anyone care to comment what they've done with Rye beers, etc.? - -Tom Fitzpatrick ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1460 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.