Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr7.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr7.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.69]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10507 for ; Sun, 22 Jun 1997 11:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.36]) by srvr7.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA05278 for ; Sun, 22 Jun 1997 11:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) with X.500 id LAA09975; Sun, 22 Jun 1997 11:17:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uu6.psi.com by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) with SMTP id LAA09971; Sun, 22 Jun 1997 11:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA26864 for spencer at umich.edu; Sun, 22 Jun 97 11:17:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA22914 for judge-digest-outgoing; Sun, 22 Jun 1997 10:48:43 -0400 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 10:48:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199706221448.KAA22914 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1459 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Sunday, 22 June 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1459 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Re: Big beers and style guidleines Re: judge-digest V1 #1457 Re: judge-digest V1 #1457 Re: judge-digest V1 #1458 Style guidelines ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joel Plutchak" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 08:46:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Big beers and style guidleines On Jun 18, Robert Paolino wrote: >Bill Giffin wrote: >> Judges give the first place to beers which are grossly outside the >> guidelines and brewers know that to win, the beer has to be bigger >> then life. > I keep hearing this line, and I keep finding so many counter examples. > Last weekend in judged at the University of Illinois' BUZZ competition and > we gave BOS to a dry stout. ... > [It was a] very flavourful and appropriately LOW gravity brew. Strangely enough I was at the same competition, and due to a couple judge no-shows was pressed into judging. American Lager had been combined with German Lager; my table picked a very light Cream Ale over several heavier Munich Helles; it was a better beer, stylistically. Had the Cream Ale been a bigger beer, I believe it would have been given a lower score. > Let's put this "big beer bias" nonsense to rest. A well done low gravity > beer can make itself known even in a field of bigger beers if the judges > don't trash their palates on the others. I'm not entirely sure it should be *completely* put to rest. In my admittedly limited experience as an entrant, I've found that an American Pale Ale will do substantially better in competition if you push (or exceed) the stylistic limitations on malt flavor, body, gravity, and bitterness. - -- Joel (who's still wondering why an NHC judge complained about a high hop aroma on his American barleywine) ------------------------------ From: Dion Hollenbeck Date: 20 Jun 1997 08:32:46 -0700 Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1457 >> Robert Paolino writes: RP> Let's put this "big beer bias" nonsense to rest. A well done low RP> gravity beer can make itself known even in a field of bigger beers RP> if the judges don't trash their palates on the others. While it *may* still happen, I have to agree with Robert that it ain't the norm as far as I am concerned. At the GAZBF I judged the BOS round and once we had taken our first taste of the 12 beers in contention, we unanimously agreed that the BOS beer was a Kolsch. There was absolutely nothing wrong with it and it had every characteristic is was supposed to have. We then proceeded to eliminate some beers and haggle for 45 minutes over the remaining 6 or so to determine 2nd and 3rd. But in no case did beers big for style win. In the stout runoff at the NHC First Round in Fresno, it was not the Imperial that won, but one of the lower gravity sub-styles (I now forget which one). Again, we tossed out some right away because they had minor obvious flaws, and then had to debate over which of the different ones were closest to their style. Maybe my experiences are not the norm, but I would hope that they are and that the "big beer syndrome" is vanishing with more attention to judging to the guidelines. I certainly will throw out or knock down a beer for being too big for style. dion QUAFF President Organizer America's Finest City Homebrew Competition March 8, 1997 Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor http://www.vigra.com/~hollen/AFCHBC.html - --- Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen at vigra.com http://www.vigra.com/~hollen Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California ------------------------------ From: jeff at edm.ca (Jeff Pinhey) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:52:23 -0400 Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1457 The flamboyant Mr. Giffin writes: > >The problem truly is that no one pays much attention to the guideline >whether you use the AHA or the BJCP'S. Judges give the first place to >beers which are grossly outside the guidelines and brewers know that to >win, the beer has to be bigger then life. > This should read "judges SOMETIMES give the first place to beers which are grossly outside the guideline..." Interestingly enough, this seems to happen in the categories that we ought to know best. Common styles like english bitters for example. (I fully and openly admit that the motivation behind this post may have something to do with having finished recently second in a "British Ale" category to a beer that tasted like it was brewed in Portland Oregon. A great beer, but on the wrong ocean) ####################################################### Jeff Pinhey, Halifax, Nova Scotia ------------------------------ From: Chuck R Hanning Date: 20 Jun 97 10:04:05 EDT Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1458 On friday june 20, Alan folsom wrote: >Regarding the BJCP Style guide - In what category would one enter >a beer designed to emphasize the use of Rye? This is not all that >rare, but doesn't seem to be accomodated. I've wondered why there isn't a roggen catagory (since it is a defined style in germany), and perhaps another in which any type of rye used (malted or flaked) in a beer to add some more depth. This seems like it should be there. Comments ? Chuck Hanning ------------------------------ From: popeman at webtv.net (Tom Pope) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:16:44 -0700 Subject: Style guidelines I think there has been a tendency to award the top scores to entries that are at the top of the stripe or a bit above the stripe for each category. However, I also believe that since this tendency has been noted and discussed, that now many judges are making a diligent effort to downgrade an entry that is too big for its category. Nonetheless, I think there will always be a tendency to award top scores to an entry that approaches the upper limits of original gravity, bitternes, etc. assuming all other style factors are met. I would also like to caution those who use an entrant's recipe and original gravity to determine if an entry was way out of style. It is fairly common for homebrewers to give inaccurate or incomplete information on their recipe forms, since many of them are concerned about their pet brew being cloned..How's that for opening up a new can of worms? Cheers to ya! Tom Pope ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1459 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.