Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr7.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr7.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.69]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08286 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.36]) by srvr7.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA15289 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:28:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) with X.500 id JAA22947; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uu6.psi.com by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) with SMTP id JAA22935; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:28:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA13230 for spencer at umich.edu; Sat, 26 Apr 97 09:28:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA23767 for judge-digest-outgoing; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 08:54:59 -0400 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 08:54:59 -0400 Message-Id: <199704261254.IAA23767 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1429 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Saturday, 26 April 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1429 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Uerige Alt Re: judge-digest V1 #1428 AHA's Beer Evaluator Program Re: judge-digest V1 #1428 Cc: jeff at edm.ca (Jeff Pinhey) Re: Bavarian Wheat Beer Re: I've Got the Uerige Re: Bavarian Wheat Beers Schwartzbier ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Houseman, David L" Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:17:02 -0400 Subject: Uerige Alt Fresh, at the brewpub in Dusseldorf, this is the 45-50 of Alts. I remember that they did sell bottles there to go but I've never tasted it as bottled so it's hard to say how it would compare to their draft version. Assuming the bottling, handling and transportation got at least as good care as homebrew, then there should be a reasonable comparison of what bottled Alt should be like. Perhaps kegging and putting your own Uerige Alt clone on tap would be superior to the bottled version but at least comparing apples to apples, I'd expect that if Uerige did a reasonable job of bottling and the beer is fresh then that should be a standard for the Dusseldorf style Alt. Dave ------------------------------ From: Charles Hudak Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:35:09 -0700 Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1428 Greetings, In response to George and banana beer (just when do you add the bananas...after the boil or do you dry banana it? ;} ) Seriously, though here's my .02. Many brewpub and homebrew versions do have a lot of banana character. The problem is balance. In searching for a yeast to use in our brewery for a B.weizen, I talked to a local microbiologist who cultures for the local brewpubs and he said he had a yeast that he was growing up for several of them. I trotted over and tried some of their beers and they all were singularly banana-e. I convinced him to reculture the Weinhenstaphen strain (S.Delbreuckii) and used that and got much better results (I think it was Wyeast 3068). The key was balance. Too much banana OR clove/vanilla makes for a bad HW. Interestingly enough the HW that I made was one of the best I've ever had but mostly due to freshness. Commercial examples are quite old by the time they make it over here. In that time the isoamyl acetate decreases in evidence giving more clove/vanilla than banana. A good HW when fresh will have a balanced mix of banana and clove. This character will skew towards the clove as it ages. Nuff said. I've recently heard the Zum Uerige has become a victim of their success and is producing a beer of much less character than previously (where have I heard that before?) I don't know if ZU alt is still the nirvana of Alt. Probably wise to take it with a grain of salt. Cheers CH - ----- Charles Hudak Head Brewer, San Diego Brewing Co. 619.284.BREW cwhudak at abac.com ------------------------------ From: Caroline Duncker Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:42:08 -0600 Subject: AHA's Beer Evaluator Program Jeremy Bergsman questioned the AHA's "oft-rumored judging organization" a few weeks ago in judgenet 1420. I apologize for not answering sooner. The AHA does NOT have plans to create a judging organzization. Rather, we plan to create a self-study program and seminars that serve to inform people about the beer basics. Beer ingredients, how ingredients contribute to beer flavor and aroma, different beer styles and what differentiates these styles, brewing history and traditions of the four main brewing nations (England, Belgium, Germany and the US) are just some of the topics covered in the program. We are calling the program "Brew U". We hope that these courses will help prepare people for the BJCP exam. We have designed an instructor's handbook and we plan to certify instructors for Brew U seminars. The first self-study materials are currently undergoing final review by beer experts for content and technical accuracy and should be available within the next 30 days. We're also scheduling Brew U seminars to coincide with major beer events this summer. We hope to have a calendar of classes available within the next 30 days. We'll be providing Brew U updates in Zymurgy and on our Web page. Thanks for giving me the forum to explain this program in more detail. Cheers, Caroline - -- Caroline Duncker Project Coordinator American Homebrewers Association (303) 447-0816 x 116 (voice) 736 Pearl Street (303) 447-2825 (fax) PO Box 1679 caroline at aob.org (e-mail) Boulder, CO 80306-1679 info at aob.org (aob info) U.S.A. http://beertown.org (web) ------------------------------ From: Tom Martyn Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:25:03 -0400 Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1428 George De Piro wrote: >Happily, I have succeeded in producing a low ester, high phenol and >vanilla Weizen with Wyeast 3068. Unfortunately, it would seem that >many judges don't agree that a Weizen can be anything less than a >monkey's dream! Ok, I'll bite. How do you emphasize the clove/phenolic flavors with 3068? Don't tease me by saying you can, and not spill your secret! 'Fess up. Tom Martyn Brattleboro, VT ------------------------------ From: Ken Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:26:46 -0400 Subject: Cc: jeff at edm.ca (Jeff Pinhey) I just got my hands on a fresh bottle direct from the establishment, of Uerige Alt. My question is this - should we be considering this beer as a target for alt biers (the Nirvana of Alt etc.)? The idea of where a 45 plus score would be appropriate etc. etc. etc.?? My previous altbier experience includes one of a name I can't remember while in Germany, Bottled Hannen, Brewpub versions in Boston and Toronto, Magnotta (Ontario), several home brews, I travel to Dusseldorf on business regularly and have had this along with most of the other Dusseldorf Alts. There is a fair amount of variation in hoppiness among them but the one characteristic that always strikes me is how clean and refreshing this style is. As far as judging this style, Yes this would be a very good example but I'm afraid very few judges have had it and very few brewers (home or commercial) in the US have done good job at duplicating it. Most US alts I've judged have been light colored brown ales. ------------------------------ From: John Wilson Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Bavarian Wheat Beer George makes a valid point when he states that: > > It is very easy to produce banana and bubblegum homebrew with Wyeast > 3068 (a very commonly used Weizen strain), but there are few classic > commercial examples that taste like that. I believe that it is > important to compare home brews to commercial examples, not just the > style guidelines. This is especailly true in a style like Bavarian > Weizen, where commercial examples are plentiful, and there are > differences between them. > I have to agree wholeheartedly, the clove spiciness should be prevalent. I have never encountered said problem of judges deducting for lack of esters, but I have to disagree with George's idea that there are plenty of commercial examples (unfortunately I have never been to Germany). In recent months I have been in search of an American produced weizen (it seems as if the market is saturated with "hefeweizens"), and what I have found is alarming--not one commercially produced American hefeweizen contained said clove spiciness! Basically, they are American wheats w/yeast (BTW, no esters). Am I relying on German commercial examples excessively, have I been sampling the "wrong" beers, or is it time for a separation between German and American "weizens?" Let's discuss this matter. Ciao! Tony ------------------------------ From: jdecarlo at juno.com (John A DeCarlo) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:23:54 -0400 Subject: Re: I've Got the Uerige jeff at edm.ca (Jeff Pinhey) writes: >I just got my hands on a fresh bottle direct from the establishment, >of Uerige Alt. This is right off the plane from Dusseldorf. How lucky. I had this same experience several years ago when a friend, who had just moved to Dusseldorf for his company, came back with freshly bottled Zum Uerige Alt (and a T-shirt!). >My question is this - should we be considering this beer as a target >for alt biers (the Nirvana of Alt etc.)? I would caution you about this. Surely it is an excellent beer, to be savored well. However, in Germany it is on the extreme edge of the commercial Alt beers. So I would be reluctant to think of this as the ultimate Alt when judging, as Alts that are more mainstream should be able to do just as well in a competition. John DeCarlo, jdecarlo at juno.com, Arlington, VA http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/1113 ------------------------------ From: jdecarlo at juno.com (John A DeCarlo) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:19:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Bavarian Wheat Beers George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) writes: > Why is it that many judges seem to think Bavarian Weizen should >smell and taste like a banana plantation? I'm frankly surprised by this. I guess fashions come and go. When I started brewing and even later when I started judging, a very common comment on Bavarian Weizens was something like: "too much banana--overpowers other flavors--try keeping your fermentation temperature lower, like the low 60s". Simply because most people back then fermented at 70+. Don't know what the explanation is recently, though I remember discussions about how the bottled Weizen we get here is missing some of the more volatile flavors. So I expect some people think that they should expect more banana because they don't detect much in the imported bottles. > In recent months I have been struggling to produce a wheat beer >with minimal banana esters, but plenty of clove and vanilla. The key for most people, including myself, is to keep the temps close to 60 for fermentation--fewer esters, including the banana esters. John DeCarlo, jdecarlo at juno.com, Arlington, VA http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/1113 ------------------------------ From: DENNIS WALTMAN Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:23:25 -0400 Subject: Schwartzbier >From: "Thomas, Andrew R" >Right off the bat, I cant think of another beer category other than >Cal. common which has one beer only as a standard. Are there a lot of commercial examples of Schwartzbier (available in the U.S.)? Do you have suggestions for someone wanting to try a commerical example of the beer. Thanks in Advance, Dennis Waltman Sutherland, Asbill & Brennan, LLP Atlanta, GA ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1429 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.