Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr7.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr7.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.69]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA19085 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.36]) by srvr7.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA16377 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:18:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with X.500 id JAA29159; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:18:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uu6.psi.com by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with SMTP id JAA29138; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:18:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA26692 for spencer at umich.edu; Thu, 10 Apr 97 09:17:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA24400 for judge-digest-outgoing; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:00:52 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:00:52 -0400 Message-Id: <199704101200.IAA24400 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1420 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Thursday, 10 April 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1420 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Re: judge-digest V1 #1419 Privacy in Score Reporting Re: Privacy posting scores Re: Privacy in score reporting Re: Is there no such thing as privacy? BJCP exam schedule Minor error ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeremy Bergsman Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 23:25:23 -0700 Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1419 > From: jdecarlo at juno.com (John A DeCarlo) writes on privacy: > It's hard to say. After all, lots of people would be interested in > finding out that they are not alone, or that competitions aren't so > daunting as all that. Some people I know are reluctant to enter > competitions because all they hear of them is how these great brewers > brewed such good beer. If they saw that there was the full spectrum of > scores out there, it might encourage them to go ahead and enter and not > worry about being the only low scoring entry. I had all these same feelings before I got into judging. However, all of these concerns may be addressed by publishing the scores without attaching them to names. (Unless the number of entries is so small that a brewer's score can be deduced from the range and the fact that he/she didn't take a ribbon or some such.) ================================= > From: Caroline Duncker > I think the two organizations can glean useful information from each > other and that there is room for improvement with both groups. If you > look beyond the AHA and BJCP you may see that the more we promote one > another and the hobby, the better it is for homebrewing overall. I have to agree with this sentiment, however there is a difference between an all-volunteer organization promoting/being asked to promote what obviously amounts to a business and the converse. Let me redirect this to ask: how is the AHA promoting the BJCP with their oft-rumored judging organization? Can we hear some facts on what you guys have planned? - -- Jeremy Bergsman mailto:jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb ------------------------------ From: oliver at triton.cms.udel.edu (Oliver Weatherbee) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:18:21 -0400 Subject: Privacy in Score Reporting In regards to the privacy issue Bill Coleman mentioned, I recently subscribed to this forum primarily because of a competition I am organizing here in Delaware and I was interested in just these types of discussion. We are trying to encourage more of the brewers here to participate in competitions in general. As such, it might be good to allow participants to see how their entry did in comparison to the others in the category, as another poster mentioned. To someone who has not entered competitions, I do think it is helpful to get a feel for the spread and diversity of scores. However, the privacy issue should not be ignored. Would it be an acceptable comprimise to provide a copy of unattributed scores for all of the categories to each of the entrants? They themselves know their own score and they can see where they stand in regards to the rest of the field but since no names would associated with those scores, anonymity (sp?) is maintained. This seems a reasonable approach to me. - - Oliver Weatherbee (First State Brewers) ------------------------------ From: Scott Bickham Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:35:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Privacy Russ wrote: > > Concerning Bill Coleman's comments on full disclosure of competition > results. I have sent out a complete list of all entrants/entries and their > Final scores for the California State Homebrew Competition for the past 4 > or 5 years. I have had several people tell me that they appreciate being > able to see where their entry placed relative to the rest of the entries. > No one has ever complained that they thought it was inappropriate. I do not > print the scores of those beers which were eliminated in the preliminary > judging. I just note that they didn't make it to the Finals. The obvious solution to the privacy/placing issue is what I have done with the competitions I have organized: send a listing of the scores, but reference them only by entry number, not by the name of the participant. The brewer gets his or her scoresheet back and only has to look where the entry number and score are relative to the others. Problem solved. Scott ------------------------------ From: "Bryan L. Gros" Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 09:42:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: posting scores Bill Coleman posted his concern about listing all entrants names and scores with competition results. I personally don't worry too much about it, but I can see how some people might take it wrong. If the goal is to provide the entrants with more information about how they stood in their category, you could publish the list of scores for each category with no names attached. Then people could see the range of scores and know where they stand without anyone knowing who came in last. **** I thought the judging article in the recent Brewing Techniques was very interesting. To summarize, one competition organizer examined individual judges scores as a function of the order the beers were judged. They were looking for trends of scores to increase or decrease as the judging round progressed. They found that all the judges showed signs of primacy (first beers get the higher scores), although most were not significant in a statistical sense. Although one judge showed a big effect, the main conclusion was that this problem is not a big one. If we can extrapolate from this one competition (about 250 beers). For those of you using a computer in your competition, you can save a lot of data if you want to and run these kinds of statistics after the competition. - Bryan grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu Nashville, TN ------------------------------ From: Rich Webb Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 09:02:56 -0700 Subject: Re: Privacy in score reporting Bill Coleman wrote: > >From: MaltyDog at aol.com >Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:01:42 -0500 (EST) >Subject: Is there no such thing as privacy? > >Am I the only person who was extremely offended to see a web page recently >that listed the results of a contest that I had judged and entered, and >included the score and the first and last name of every person who submitted >entries to the contest, and their score? Well, apparently you're not the only person to be "extremely offended", but I find that I have to dissent with respect to the chorus of agreement with the statement above. Many competitions return the complete listing of all entered beers, along with the brewers names and the scores of their beers, to persons who have entered their competition. This is often a sheet of paper included with the judging sheets sent to the entrants. The Western Washington Fair (Do the Puayaup!) has a cardboard sign that is placed on the case displaying the third bottle of entries, each beer with an appropriate ribbon sticker displayed on it. Persons who are interested in seeing how their beers scored, as well as the score of the beers entered by their buddies, are invited to look at the sign, and compare and contrast the entries and their scores. And most competitions that I've entered and receved feedback from have included a master listing of all scores, as well as their entrants... I rather think that it doesn't make a difference whether the information is displayed on a cardboard sign for all the world to see, or if a Web page is created with the same information. The scores, the styles, the number of entries, the participants, should all be public knowledge, and available to everyone. The Brews Brothers, whose Novembeerfest competition is famous for its timely rate of response, have prided ourselves on having the competition on a Saturday, with the results in the mail on a Monday. This is in part due to the diligence and perserverence of a) the members who have organized the damned thing, and b) the amount of computer entry done ahead of time, again a mark of organization. (This reflects on a recent thread in the Judgenet digest regarding the efficacy of computer usage in competitions. We're all for it!) This includes the entry of each score into the computer data base as the stewards collect the sheets and turn them in to the organizers. Thus the information is returned to the brewer in a timely fashion, with data not only on thier own entries, but those of all other entries in the competition. I for one want to know if all the judges on a particular panel scored all beers in their flight in some peculier manner, such as extra low, or extra high. This may be due to the nature of the entries (either exceptionally bad or exceptionally good), as well as the temperment of the people involved in the judging of those beers. I'm still waiting for my results from the Cascade Brewers Guild's competion, now over two weeks old. If I hadn't seen the results on the club's Web page (and if I hadn't been called by the President of that club informing me that I'd won best mead in show), I'd still be waiting for the information to arrive. That information is on a web site, so I can see how well I did, and yes, how well my brewing peers did. Do I get bent outta shape when the Western Washington Fair puts out a sign with my name associated with my entries? It would be easy if I'd never entered a bad beer, because I'd always be proud of my results. Unfortunately, that's not the case. I won't say "many", but a few of my beers entered in that competition over the years have failed to place. Did it cause me grief to have entered a beer that didn't place? Yes. Did it cause me grief to have the whole world know about it? Not really. As pointed out in another post from the last digest, the "value" of my beer is ultimately judged by myself, with the opinions of others being secondary. I don't need the validation of the opinions of others to enjoy my hobbies. I guess my advice to Mr. Coleman is to lighten up. It's only a hobby, it's not a measure of the worth of a man (or woman for that matter). It's supposed to be fun, and if it's not fun, then stop doing it... Rich Webb, Emperor of the Brews Brothers Recognized Judge, BJCP ------------------------------ From: Dion Hollenbeck Date: 09 Apr 1997 09:35:33 -0700 Subject: Re: Is there no such thing as privacy? At the AFCHBC, we do what I think is a good compromise, we publish the scores of the award winners. How could *they* be offended? And with every entrant's score sheets, we provide the results sheet so that they can see how they compare to the award winners. We had been asked by many brewers TO publish the scores of the winners and I think it works out quite well. In our case, we require mininum scores for 35, 30, and 25 for first, second and third places, so no one who is the only brewer in the category will get a ribbon and get their score published with a stinking score. dion Organizer America's Finest City Homebrew Competition March 8, 1997 Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor http://www.vigra.com/~hollen/AFCHBC.html - --- Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen at vigra.com http://www.vigra.com/~hollen Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California ------------------------------ From: Scott Bickham Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BJCP exam schedule Here is the BJCP Exam Schedule as of April 9, 1997. We are booked solid until the AHA conference and October is already full, so keep that in mind when contacting me about possible exam dates. Date Location Contact Person Phone Number - ------------------------------------------------------------------ 4/19 Rochester, NY Todd Colin TBCOLIN at KODAK.COM 4/27 Halifax, NS Jeff Pinhey (902) 425-5218 5/3 Orlando, FL Mac Monroe (407) 253-2534 5/10 Birmingham, AL Ginger Wotring (205) 320-2887 5/10 Naperville, IL Tom Fitzpatrick (630) 896-6255 5/24 New Albany, IN Dibbs Harting (812) 967-2811 5/31 Richond, VA Scott Bickham (410) 290-7721 6/7 Denver, CO Mark Groshek (303) 757-8394 6/7 Fresno, CA Jim Lopes (209) 227-7994 6/21 Malvern, PA Chuck Hanning (610)-889-0396 6/22 Regina, Sask. Bev Robertson (306) 359-7276 6/29 St. Louis, MO John Sullivam sullivan at anet-stl.com 7/17 NHC-Cleveland Scott Bickham (410) 290-7721 10/97 Bellevue, WA Mark Henry (206) 882-9929 10/97 GABF-Denver Scott Bickham (410) 290-7721 10/11 Brighton, MI Bill Pfeiffer (810) 229-0727 date/location to be determined - contact me if interested - ------------------------------------------------------------------- 5/97 Boston, MA Dan Hall (603) 778-1231 6/97 Minneapolis Jim Ellingson jellings at me.umn.edu 7/97 Phoenix, AZ Rick Drake HARDROCKENGR at msn.com 10/3 Morristown, NJ Julianne Targen Sept. Fargo, ND Ray Taylor libertyray at earthlink.net Oct. Syracuse, NY Peter Garofalo (315) 428-0952 10/3 Morristown, NJ Julianne Targen Dec. Princeton, NJ Bruce Hammell (609) 393-2946 1/98 Raleigh, NC Larry Matthews TBD Erie, PA Ralph Colaizzi (412) 931-9099 ------------------------------ From: Scott Bickham Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Minor error Please note that the May 24th exam will be in Louisville, not New Albany. Sorry for the wasted bandwidth. Scott ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1420 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.