Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr7.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr7.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.69]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03766 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:37:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.37]) by srvr7.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA13768 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with X.500 id XAA13670; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uu6.psi.com by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with SMTP id XAA13655; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA11320 for spencer at umich.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 97 23:35:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA19584 for judge-digest-outgoing; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:54:58 -0400 Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:54:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199704090254.WAA19584 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1419 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Tuesday, 8 April 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1419 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Re: Privacy in score reporting Re: privacy Re: Is there no such thing as privacy? Publishing contest scores Re: privacy Competition Announcement and Call for Judges Is there no such thing as privacy AHA Style Guidelines ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jeff at edm.ca (Jeff Pinhey) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:51:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Privacy in score reporting Bill Coleman wrote: > >From: MaltyDog at aol.com >Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:01:42 -0500 (EST) >Subject: Is there no such thing as privacy? > >Am I the only person who was extremely offended to see a web page recently >that listed the results of a contest that I had judged and entered, and >included the score and the first and last name of every person who submitted >entries to the contest, and their score? > >I think it is in extremely bad taste to post the name, score and entry for 19 >point beers. There is no good reason in my mind to post other than the top >three entries in each category. If someone who didn't place wants to find out >how well they scored overall, than it is their business to contact the >contest runners, who may or may not give them the information. > >This whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I will say for what it's >worth, that I did not score a 19, nowhere near it; but I still did not like >seeing my score up there! > >I would be interested in hearing from others on this subject. At first thought, my reaction is what's the big fuss. But then I started to think how I would have felt about some scores I have received on some beers. I have entered beers simply to get an opinion about them. When well judged, the exercise was worthwhile. I might not have wanted other people to see the scores without their knowing my reason for entering. The times when my plambics were judged by judges who had never had anything but Morte Subite before were also occasions where the score was meaningless. In the end, however, I don't take it that seriously, and think that anyone who does is entering contests for the wrong reason. Sure, it might be mildly embarrasing to have a bad score made public, but not all my beers are wonderful, and I am human. It is supposed to be fun, and scoring a 19 doesn't make you less of a brewer. Your beer is still as good as you think it is, and that is what really matters. ####################################################### Jeff Pinhey, Halifax, Nova Scotia ------------------------------ From: Scott Bickham Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:15:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: privacy Bill Coleman writes: > Am I the only person who was extremely offended to see a web page recently > that listed the results of a contest that I had judged and entered, and > included the score and the first and last name of every person who submitted > entries to the contest, and their score? I see no point in publicizing the entire results of a competition, or any of the scores for that matter. The organizers are doing a disservice to both the entrants and judges. It can be very discouraging for a novice brewer to get low score, but if it is done anonymously and the feedback is helpful, it can turn into a positive experience. On the judging side, here is an example of how it can be damaging. One of my pseudo-lambics scored a 19 at a recent competition, and the complete results were sent to the participants and judges. I have had other plambics do well in several major competitions, including both Spirits of Belgium, the 1995 World Cup of Beer and AHA nationals, so it's safe to say that I would not enter a low quality beer in a competition. So those who read the results see that a master judge with a reputation for brewing good interpretations of the lambic style scores a 19 and make the conclusion that I got a raw deal. In this case, the poor showing may reflect badly on the judges (who were also listed on the result sheet). My skin has gotten pretty thick, which is why I don't mind publicly stating that I received my first 19 after six years of entering competitions, but I think the privacy issue should be respected by the organizers. On the other hand, maybe these people would like their exam scores posted here ;-) Don't take this last comment seriously - the BJCP has always restricted access to judging records and exam scores. Have a nice weekend. Scott Bickham ------------------------------ From: jdecarlo at juno.com (John A DeCarlo) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:25:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Is there no such thing as privacy? On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:22:53 -0500 Bill Coleman wrote: >Am I the only person who was extremely offended to see a web page >recently that listed the results of a contest that I had judged and entered, >and included the score and the first and last name of every person who >submitted entries to the contest, and their score? Well, I would never have imagined such a reaction. But, after thinking about it, I can see how some people might feel hurt by seeing a low score out there for the public to see. And, seeing how the object of judging and competitions is to help brewers, I would have to reluctantly consider not posting that information. It's hard to say. After all, lots of people would be interested in finding out that they are not alone, or that competitions aren't so daunting as all that. Some people I know are reluctant to enter competitions because all they hear of them is how these great brewers brewed such good beer. If they saw that there was the full spectrum of scores out there, it might encourage them to go ahead and enter and not worry about being the only low scoring entry. John DeCarlo, jdecarlo at juno.com, Arlington, VA http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/1113 ------------------------------ From: David E Drinkwater-Lunn (David Drinkwater) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 10:49:15 -0600 Subject: Publishing contest scores At 12:22 4/4/1997, owner-judge-digest at synchro.com wrote: >------------------------------ > >From: MaltyDog at aol.com >Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:01:42 -0500 (EST) >Subject: Is there no such thing as privacy? > >Am I the only person who was extremely offended to see a web page recently >that listed the results of a contest that I had judged and entered, and >included the score and the first and last name of every person who submitted >entries to the contest, and their score? > >I think it is in extremely bad taste to post the name, score and entry for 19 >point beers. There is no good reason in my mind to post other than the top >three entries in each category. If someone who didn't place wants to find out >how well they scored overall, than it is their business to contact the >contest runners, who may or may not give them the information. > >This whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I will say for what it's >worth, that I did not score a 19, nowhere near it; but I still did not like >seeing my score up there! > >I would be interested in hearing from others on this subject. > >Bill Coleman >Certified >MaltyDog at aol.com Bill, I would have to agree that posting all scores is in bad taste. Posting the scores of the prize winners may be appropriate, but posting "loser" scores certainly can't add anything to the professionalism of a competition. Perhaps someone made the mistake of thinking that it was reasonable or necessaty to be "accountable" to the public or some such. I have seen competitions where "secondary" conditions for winning in small categories were put up: e.g. a beer cannot place first in a category if it is not scored above 40, cannot place second if it is not above 30. But posting the scores of 25's and below with brewer's full names just doesn't do anything. Good brewers deserve credit, perhaps, and can be a resource to new brewers who are interested in learning more, so 30+ might be useful to post. Those are, after all, already accepted to be good beers, and good examples of style. That brewer should probably have some knowledge to share. But I ramble. Thanks for letting us know about it. I think it will be a useful discussion. David ------------------------------ From: "Rad Equipment" Date: 6 Apr 1997 09:06:04 -0800 Subject: Re: privacy Subject: RE>privacy Time:9:04 AM Date:4/6/97 Concerning Bill Coleman's comments on full disclosure of competition results. I have sent out a complete list of all entrants/entries and their Final scores for the California State Homebrew Competition for the past 4 or 5 years. I have had several people tell me that they appreciate being able to see where their entry placed relative to the rest of the entries. No one has ever complained that they thought it was inappropriate. I do not print the scores of those beers which were eliminated in the preliminary judging. I just note that they didn't make it to the Finals. RW... Russ Wigglesworth (INTERNET: Rad_Equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu - RussWig at aol.com) UCSF Dept. of Radiology, San Francisco, CA (415) 476-3668 / Home (707) 769-0425 ------------------------------ From: Karen & Gary Sandler Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 11:37:45 -0700 Subject: Competition Announcement and Call for Judges The Hangtown Association of Zymurgy Enthusiasts (HAZE) is proud to announce this year's County Fair Homebrew Competition. Come spend a beautiful day in the Sierra foothills, just 35 minutes east of Sacramento, CA. Details: Event: The 1997 El Dorado County Fair Homebrew Competition Location: The Fairgrounds, 100 Placerville Dr., Placerville, CA 95667 When: Saturday, May 31st, 10 am to 3 pm What: All 24 AHA Beer Styles, All 3 Mead Styles and Cider Breakfast noshes and a full lunch will be provided for all judges, steward, and other helpers. We especially welcome all those new judges who have recently passed their BJCP exam this past March. Please join us for this fun event in the foothills. Contact: Steve Eason at sqeason at innercite.com or (916) 644-4304 Visit our Web Site: http://www.innercite.com/~sandler for any other info AND online judge registration! For entry information, contact Steve (above) or the Fair office at (916) 621-5860. ------------------------------ From: Deborah Robinson Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:24:08 -0700 Subject: Is there no such thing as privacy Bill Coleman wrote Am I the only person who was extremely offended to see a web page recently that listed the results of a contest that I had judged and entered, and included the score and the first and last name of every person who submitted entries to the contest, and their score? I agree Bill. Our competition's recent results are also posted on the web, full names included, but we only listed the score to the top three beers for each category. I think it's great that we can provide interested contestants with a lot more information about the competition than in the past, but I was opposed to posting all scores, and I'm not so sure even listing entries by their place was such a good idea. I'm looking forward to getting feedback; if I had any beers entered I don't think I'd want everyone to know where I placed. What we also did, which may be a better solution, is include a sheet with all scores as part of the package when mailing back the judges score sheets to the brewers. That way the brewer gets an idea of how things fell out, but it's not quite as public. Deborah Robinson National; Judge Coordinator, St. Patricks Cascadia Cup Homebrew Competition http://www.nwmarket.com/cbg/spcc_results.htm ------------------------------ From: Caroline Duncker Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 15:47:17 -0700 Subject: AHA Style Guidelines This is in response to John DeCarlo's post re: AHA and style guidelines. >Shouldn't you be saying "the AHA should explore cooperation and >consolidation"? John, have you been listening to the posts I have made to judgenet? The AHA and BJCP are working together on issues such as these and we are continuing to do so. >They have yet to seriously work on guidelines. James >Spence may have tried, but he was only one person, and the AHA hasn't >seriously considered knowledgeable input in the past. John, there are only three people working at the AHA and one of those persons is the managing editor for the styles guidelines. James happened to be that person for 4-5 years. James received input from various groups including judges and and made modifications to the existing guidelines based on informed suggestions. The AHA considers the guidelines a working document, we are continually updating and refining them. To say that only one person at the AHA "tried" is misleading. He was the one person in charge of the style guidelines and the person who made changes. I am the managing editor for the 1998 style guidelines. I can assure you that I am open to dialog, good ideas and change as James was. >The AHA may be more interested now in becoming an organization to serve homebrewers, This has always been the goal of the AHA. >but the most sensible approach for them would be to >acknowledge that there are other organizations capable of doing a much >better job than they. In this case, it would be the BJCP for >competitions and judging, including style guidelines. I think the two organizations can glean useful information from each other and that there is room for improvement with both groups. If you look beyond the AHA and BJCP you may see that the more we promote one another and the hobby, the better it is for homebrewing overall. Cheers, Caroline - -- Caroline Duncker Project Coordinator American Homebrewers Association (303) 447-0816 x 116 (voice) 736 Pearl Street (303) 447-2825 (fax) PO Box 1679 caroline at aob.org (e-mail) Boulder, CO 80306-1679 info at aob.org (aob info) U.S.A. http://beertown.org (web) ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1419 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.