Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr7.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr7.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.69]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16523 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:04:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.37]) by srvr7.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA16143 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:04:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with X.500 id KAA05215; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:04:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu6.psi.com by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with SMTP id KAA04948; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA04395 for spencer at umich.edu; Tue, 25 Mar 97 10:03:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA01958 for judge-digest-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:18:33 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:18:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199703251418.JAA01958 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1411 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Tuesday, 25 March 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1411 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Re: New mead guidelines Re: RE>New mead guidelines Re: RE>New mead guidelines Computers, Again Mead guidelines again re: judge-training by e-mail Big Apple Homebrew Competition, beds for volunteers Mead guidelines ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dion Hollenbeck Date: 21 Mar 1997 08:07:53 -0800 Subject: Re: New mead guidelines >> Norman Dickenson writes: ND> In JD 1409, Spencer Thomas offered some opinions about ND> the BJCP Mead style guidelines and wrote: >> It seems to me that the committee that put together these guidelines >> is overly concerned with the different ways in which mead can be >> adulterated, and not in promoting the recognition of the pure >> essence of this ethereal beverage. ND> While this may or may not be the case, I believe the committee ND> was trying to offer all of the subtle sub-styles known. It ND> seems odd, though, that criticism is made because "too much" ND> information is provided. If the purpose of the style guidelines ND> is to educate, then I am educated by the Mead style guidelines. However, there is another purpose to style guidelines as well as education, and that is to use at a competition. And from my perspective as an organizer (and I hate to sound like a broken record by mentioning this again and again) style guidelines best serve me if I can just point someone to them and say, "our competition will use the XYZ style guidelines which you can find at ........". If I have to take up half a page of explanation to say which of the categories of the BJCP guidelines we will use and how we will collapse the many mead categories down into fewer categories, then the point of using the guidelines, IMHO, is wasted. I might as well take the guidelines, cut and paste them up to suit my competition and have to mail a copy out with every entry form. I am trying to avoid this because it is very expensive in postage. You go over the 1 oz. limit and it costs another $0.23 per entry form mailed. And having to send out style guidelines shoots over 1 oz. Our competition spent close to $250 in postage between notifying clubs, judges and sending out entry forms to people who called up. We fortunately saved a lot of postage we would have had to spend by putting our whole competition rules, guidelines and entry on the web, and still, postage was our second biggest expense next to food for the judges. As an organizer, I would like to see a set of "universally accepted" guidelines that I can just refer people to and if for some reason they cannot obtain them over the net or in a magazine, then have to mail them out. Down off my soapbox now. dion Organizer America's Finest City Homebrew Competition March 8, 1997 Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor http://www.vigra.com/~hollen/AFCHBC.html - --- Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen at vigra.com http://www.vigra.com/~hollen Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California ------------------------------ From: Norman Dickenson Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:44:56 -0800 Subject: Re: RE>New mead guidelines Subject: Time: 8:42 AM OFFICE MEMO RE>RE>New mead guidelines Date: 3/21/97 Don Hollenbeck writes in response to Norman Dickensons opinions: ND>>It seems odd, though, that criticism is made because "too much" ND>> information is provided. If the purpose of the style guidelines ND>> is to educate, then I am educated by the Mead style guidelines. >However, there is another purpose to style guidelines as well as >education, and that is to use at a competition. And from my >perspective as an organizer (and I hate to sound like a broken record >by mentioning this again and again) style guidelines best serve me if >I can just point someone to them and say, "our competition will use >the XYZ style guidelines which you can find at ........". An organizer still has to make the decision of what style categories will be utilized in his/her competition and convey that to the public. I'll guarantee that the majority of competitions don't even pretend to utilize all possible categories. It's much too broad for a competiton of 200 or less entries. Typically, an organizer will name a category and then identify the styles incorporated within that category, expanding or collapsing categories in response to the entries. This doesn't require printing out the definition of each and every sub-style for inclusion in entry materials. Let the entrant research whatever is the standard definition for that comp. (AHA or BJCP or ?). If the argument is that the mead style definitions are too nit picky, then so too must be the style guidelines for American Lagers with all of their marketing permutations, including lite, ice, Red, standard, premium, super- premium, imitation craft lager with a dog name, etc.... and essentially they all taste the same. And isn't Cream Ale also an obscure sub-variety of American Lager and of no consequence? When was the last time anyone saw a Malt Liquor flight? You can see where this kind of thought will lead. >As an organizer, I would like to see a set of "universally accepted" >guidelines that I can just refer people to and if for some reason they >cannot obtain them over the net or in a magazine, then have to mail >them out. >You go over the 1 oz. limit and it costs another $0.23 per entry form >mailed. And having to send out style guidelines shoots over 1 oz. Nothing restricts the ability of an organizer to edit or synthesize in order to reduce the amount of paper. My understanding is that the BJCP style guidelines will fit on two double sized 8 1/2 x 11 sheets of paper. The Style Guidelines are a resource that would be a sham if edited solely for the sake of money and convenience. What I'm hearing is a good argument for utilizing ultra light weight paper or 6 pt. font size. Norman Dickenson ------------------------------ From: hollen at vigra.com Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 09:55:02 PST Subject: Re: RE>New mead guidelines >> Norman Dickenson writes: >> You go over the 1 oz. limit and it costs another $0.23 per entry form >> mailed. And having to send out style guidelines shoots over 1 oz. ND> Nothing restricts the ability of an organizer to edit or synthesize ND> in order to reduce the amount of paper. My understanding is that ND> the BJCP style guidelines will fit on two double sized 8 1/2 x 11 ND> sheets of paper. The Style Guidelines are a resource that would ND> be a sham if edited solely for the sake of money and convenience. ND> What I'm hearing is a good argument for utilizing ultra light weight ND> paper or 6 pt. font size. Good point. But I still would like to just point people to a set of guidelines and not have to send them out. That is precisely why this year we used the AHA 1997 Style Guidelines. dion ------------------------------ From: "Kieran O'Connor" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:06:26 -0500 Subject: Computers, Again I tell ya, the longer you're on this list, the more the same topics come up again and again! Anyway, here's my view of using a computer at a comp. Take what i have to say, weigh it, and then do what works for you. We enter all the entrant data in before the comp: name, address, phone, style, special ingredients, entry #, etc. That helps us generate pull sheets with the style and entry number and special ingreds for the judges, as well as master sheets for the "back room." As scoring sheets come back, the back room has a copy of each "table sheet" and the back room fills in the score on the copy of the "table sheet". Please note: at our comp a "judging table" does a complete style, say Stouts and Porters. So when they are done, they know the winners for that category. [One thing I heard recently. A competition used the database it created to make labels for the judges. So instead of writing your name, judge rank and the style of beer you judged, you peel off a label and stick it on the scoring sheet. I may try this next year, but only with the style and ingredients as judges get shuffled around last minute]. At the end of the day, or as the day progresses, all that needs to be done is to look at each "table sheet" and see who was the first place in order to pull the beers for BoS. As an added bonus, we make up manila envelopes with entrants names and as the sheets come back we stuff the judge forms into the envelopes. Judges and stewards may pick up unreviewed sheets if they wish. We can then review the other before they go out, but they are already stuffed! The day of our comp, we don't even bring a computer since it's not necessary. We've done this for 2 years now: first year with 270 entries, second year (Nov 96) with 316 entries. This system may not work with larger competition, but from what I read 316 entries is bigger than most comps on Judgenet, so it's doable. The competion software we use is a simple database (ClarisWorks!). Again, take out of this what you want and make your own decision. I'm a computer weenie by trade, and i don't think you need a competition at the comp: it's good for the background stuff, but not necessary for the day of the comp. Kieran ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Kieran O'Connor Cortland City Schools/OCM BOCES Systems Consultant Syracuse, NY USA koconnor at cnyric.org (607) 753-6061 or (315) 433-8335 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: Bruce P Stevens Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 08:57:43 -0400 Subject: Mead guidelines again Just to shore up the support side for Spencer and not miss out on the fun of pissing off the competition Committee and the all holy Guidelines makers, I believe it is very important to take constructive criticism for what it is meant as and not as a personal attack , ladies. Spencer is correct and any fool who wishes to make a bizarre combination melomel deserves to a) separated from his or her money and b) adulterated and fondled with such fruits in public til they writhe in agony from the torture and humiliation. As this is a simple beverage with roots that demand more than fruitcake addition to the basic must, I must agree that these category delineations are way overboard from those I've seen in AMA journal previously. Before I forget to thank Mike Hall and all the others who have valiantly striven to write a thorough protocol, let me applaud their hard work publicly. I am interested in the issue but like many of us , have not had the time to devote to it. Thanks again for the good work to date. Now it is time for a thorough hazing of the list as developed and Spencer should be congratulated for starting the fire....I bring hard dry applewood to the flames and want to get a bonfire going. Let us not forget that there are 20 - 25 commercial wineries making mead in many of its varied forms and most of them are promoting the pure beverage and one to three variations as best I can tell. The state of the issue is simple ....homebrewers will put old socks into their mead if they feel it may add to the uniqueness of the beverage and always can explore in small batches, weird combos of ingredients that purists would not. I can imagine the village folk of early celtic lands traveling in longboats to Honduras to bring back a load of bananas for their melomel - yeah right? Or how about those ethiopians running nekid across the desert to reach West Africa so they could bring pomegranates back to add substance to their metheglin. Lest I forget to torch us here where it hurts,,,,, how about that lemon, wasabi and vanilla mead, I made here last year too. Where the hell do I put that anyhow guys? Show mead must be segregated as it's own specific category and there are probably many more specific intolerances I might have for the list. I have not seenit recently. I would venture to serve on a review committee of the guidelines and maybe I can advance the cause of the finished set of guidelines with the other commercial meaderies and wineries besides my own when we form a professional trade association in the near future. Some of us are starting that now and it may be functional for these wineries to have a well defined set of standards for future judging of commercial meads at wine competitions. I caution you to think that these guidelines will very likely change dramatically when modified for the format used in the sensory evaluation of wine and hope that you don't take any direction and suggestion personally. I don't have time to browse the web and play games when a barrel of mead needs to be made today , so I'd appreciate it if one of the authors could send me a copy via email at your leisure for a more thorough review and commentary Bruce P Stevens - ex Chem E, ex RC , ex ecute the IRS and Free Mead for All? Well ,how about no more taxes first and Free Beer for All instead? ------------------------------ From: darryl.davidson at pobox.com (Darryl Davidson) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:04:28 -0700 Subject: re: judge-training by e-mail I'm trying to learn taste perception, and _DESPITE_ the flaws inherent to the e-mail method, I'd like to give it a try. My logic is simply that I know I have a lot to learn, and that I'm learning ZIP/ZERO/NADA/ZILCH not doing this, so doing it can't be worse. Further, while I'm gonna move next week to a town with a strong club presence, I would like to spend more than an hour or two per month in the company of experienced judges willing to discuss tasting/ judging. If you're interested, send me a list of a half-dozen or more beers of interest to you and we'll pick beer(s) commonly available and dig into this. Of interest are two topics: 1- descriptions/questions that will help train palates to discern the involved tastes, 2- descriptions/questions/samples/attempts at proper evaluations onto current BJCP-approved judging sheets. FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, I'D BE THRILLED IF A FEW WELL-TRAINED PALATES WOULD PARTICIPATE. Anonymous posting welcomed, too. Since I'll be doing this 'by hand', I reserve the right to moderate the discussion (beer perception is the topic, not rhetoric better suited for alt.beer, hbd, judgenet, libeerty, or other online forums), but I don't expect to moderate things For the same reason, have some patience when subscribing or posting... if things go well, I'll set up an automating mechanism. To participate, send a message to dld_id at pobox.com Subject should start with BEER: Postings will be bounced outward to any interested parties. Anyone willing to send me a straight-ascii form that mimics the BJCP judge sheet? ------------------------------ From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:05:29 -0800 Subject: Big Apple Homebrew Competition, beds for volunteers Hi all, Sorry to bother you all again with our competition announcement, but I thought I should mention that we do have a few people willing to house out-of-town judges and stewards. Having a place to sleep (indoors) may make it feasible for some of you to judge/steward on April 12. If anyone is interested, please let me know as soon as possible so that arrangements can be made. Thanks. ****BIG APPLE HOMEBREW COMPETITION**** sponsored by New York City's finest homebrew clubs: The Malted Barley Appreciation Society and The New York City Homebrewers Guild. This year's contest will feature *GARRETT OLIVER*, head brewer of Brooklyn Brewing Company as a special guest best-of-show judge!!! The event will be held on April 12 at Milan, 1 East 36th Street in Manhattan. Entries are due by April 10th. Call for a list of drop-off/mail-in locations. The Best of Show prize is a day of brewing with Keith Symonds at The Westchester Brewing Co., White Plains, NY, and a $100 gift certificate to the Home Brewery (they mail order). Interested contestants should call Joanne Sagala at 212-583-4863 (day) or Donna Bersani at 201-935-2067 (evening), or E-mail me at George_De_Piro at Berlex.com. We also need judges!!! Contact me (George) at the above E-mail address or at (201)305-5074 if you are interested in judging. Have fun! George De Piro (President, Malted Barley Appreciation Society) ------------------------------ From: korz at xnet.com Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 12:18:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Mead guidelines I'm afraid that my system has an old version of acroread, so I'm unable to read any of the aforementioned guidelines... I am working on getting a new version of acroread for my system (Solaris), but in the meanwhile, I did want to ask that something be checked-on and maybe discussed here. The topic is Hydromel. I enjoy meads, but the rub is that you cannot enjoy them in any quantity. A hyromel is like a "session mead" if I understand correctly. Has Hydromel been added to the guidelines? Should it? I plan to try a few of these soon. Another nice benefit is that they don't take as long as a Show Mead to become smooth and drinkable. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1411 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.