Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr7.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr7.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.69]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03905 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:14:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.37]) by srvr7.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA20576 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:14:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with X.500 id JAA04373; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay1.smtp.psi.net by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with ESMTP id JAA04356; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:14:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu6.psi.com by relay1.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id JAA23158; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:11:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA08931 for vitt at rchland.vnet.ibm.com; Wed, 26 Feb 97 09:11:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA01683 for judge-digest-outgoing; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 08:31:06 -0500 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 08:31:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199702261331.IAA01683 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1392 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Wednesday, 26 February 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1392 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Subscriptions: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Increasing judge skills -- a proposal Re: More BOS narrow/broad styles Cream Ale two-panel judging Re: Here's an idea Last Call for Homebrew Competition Entries (Randy Reed) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov (DAVE SAPSIS) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:10:57 -0800 Subject: Increasing judge skills -- a proposal Spurned on by the recent discussion concerning means by which judge skills can be expanded, other than through the ordinary means of judging experience, I am going to toss out this idea as an experimental design. As it seems that there are two main (and related) elements to quality judging, it seems we ought to try to develop a means to incorporate both into a single exercise. I speak of 1)effectively identifying and conveying feedback (i.e.., filling out a good score sheet); and 2)consistency between judges evaluating the same beer. Unfortunately the idea of nationwide assessments of the same product makes inference regarding number 2 very difficult. Gather j number of judges at a single location. Isolate all judges such that there is *no* interaction between them. Serve them a flight of a n beers from a single style. It is critical that the identical beer is served to each judge, in a manner as consistent as possible. Score them up. Make copies of score sheets and send them to me. Each beer constitutes a replicate. I will then use statistical tests to evaluate total score, perceptions of flaws (binary), and maybe individual element scores (e.g.., flavor). The two hypotheses to be tested would be: 1) Judge effects-- Hsubo: there are no significant differences between judges within beers. Hopefully we would fail to reject this null hypothesis. 2) Beer effects-- Hsubo: there are no significant differences between beers within judges. hopefully this is not the case, but implications of this depend on: As a two factor analysis where we would like to be able to say judge effects are nil (or quantifiable as a covariate) we need to look at the interaction term (judge X beer effect). If the interaction term is significant we are in somewhat of a pickle. basically, this would indicate that the level of a judge effect depends on which beer is being evaluated. Thus isolating beer effects (i.e, the rank of the scores from one another) would be problematic. This is all possible as long as we don't violate assumptions. Given the nature of these data, it seems non-parametric tests would be most appropriate. I think this would provide an interesting quantitative assessment of how we are doing. To make it clean, we should probably determine both j and n, and test for location effects as well, as it is a push to consider a beer a rep at a location (someone see Hurlburt's shadow looming?) The exercise would also hopefully foster introspection on the part of judges on how to both better perceive qualities, and communicate feedback. maybe they would even gain insight into the nuances of their particular palate. I wholeheartedly endorse both group and public discussions of the findings. I strongly believe that judges learn how to mark up quality sheets by seeing how proficient judges do it. I also had this wild idea of serving up beers blind and having the judge instructed to both identify the style they thought it best suited, and score it accordingly. This would mostly be designed to decrease predetermined bias and increase style distinction acuity. I wasn't thinking of any statistical tests of this, just open discussion post judging. Just dos centavos for the collective. Even if the statistical approach proves weak, it does offer a exercise to get at the four main elements of judging: score, perception, communication, and feedback. Hopefully, it also brings them all together into a question you ask yourself at the end of the sheet: Is this score justified by what I have written in the comments? As always, I got my nomex in the closet, and a driptorch in the truck. Cheers, --dave ------------------------------ From: fespourteille at mmt.com (Francois Espourteille) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:31:00 -0500 Subject: Re: More BOS Dennis points out some problems with a few ideas advanced on the digest in the last few weeks concerning BOS. One had to do with "fresh palates" judging BOS, and by fresh the post refered to less experienced judges (sorry, can't remember who posted it). I have no problems with less experienced judges doing BOS and strongly believe that all BOS panels should include one judge inexperienced in BOS, but these judges must have a fair amount of judging experience and style knowledge. Otherwise, we get what Dennis described in the last post: > but when you hear, "I don't know much about smoked beers" from two >judges and one judge doesn't like smoked beers, you know your in for a >tough fight that you won't win anyway. And I won't even get into the "I don't like smoke beers". I had to deal with a "I don't like fruit beers" recently under similar conditions... BOS is not the time to learn about styles and if a judge doesn't know relatively well one of the styles on the table, then how can that person evaluate the entry against style guidelines, which afterall is the essence of BOS? I just had to put my 2 cents in. Francois. ------------------------------ From: "Bryan L. Gros" Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:10:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: narrow/broad styles Charles Hudak wrote: > >John Wilson writes: >> >> >> Basically, if we all disagree or >> agree that Sierra Nevada is the quintessential American pale ale > >Holy cow, not here too! This kind of biased thinking is scary. Yes, I >agree that SNPA is a fine example of the American Pale Ale style, but >"quintessential"? How can a person objectively judge a style when, even >subconciously, they are looking for a clone beer. Good point. Some styles we recognize as being narrow--a commercial beer is original and good enough that we consider it a style. Anchor Steam comes to mind, as perhaps does Pilsner Urquell. Would you consider that the best California Common beer is the one that most resembles Anchor? Is the best Bohemian Pilsner the beer closest to PU? These styles are fairly narrow. While many people might think that SNPA is a great Pale Ale, even the "best", Pale Ale has developed as a style with so many commercial interpretations. We now consider Pale Ale as a fairly broad category (so broad, in fact, that the AHA decided to split it) and many different beers would fit well inside it. This again is something to keep in mind while judging. We all have personal biases, especially with broad categories like pale ale that also tend to have regional interpretations. Just be sure that the pale ale you pick to win is the best pale ale (as defined by the competition style guidelines) and not necessarily your favorite pale ale. *** Dion follows up on my question about Best of Show rounds. The down side of a BOS is the necessity to ask for an additional bottle from each entrant and not use 95% of them. Someone suggested you could run a large competition with only taking two bottles AND have a BOS round. As Dion and I ask, How? Generally you need two bottles to find a winner in each category--a preliminary and final round of judging. How do you get around this problem? - Bryan grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu Nashville, TN ------------------------------ From: korz at xnet.com Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:28:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Cream Ale Dennis' post struck a nerve with me. "Judge Budweiser (US) as a Cream Ale" he suggests. Presuming there is a style called "Blonde Ale" which covers pale, 1.038-1.044OG, 12-15IBU ales, what's the difference between American Standard Lagers and Cream Ales? I really don't think there is d quantifiable difference and there have been so many unsubstantiated "facts" (rumours, more like) printed about the "Cream Ale style" that I no longer know what to believe. Comments? References? Al. ------------------------------ From: korz at xnet.com Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:03:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: two-panel judging Dion writes: >OK, so how do you support a large competition with only two bottles? >We only require two, but it bothers me that in large categories like >Pale Ale, a single panel MUST judge all the entries, in case two >panels are very far apart in their scores. How do you handle this? >I hate to give a single panel 30 entries to judge. In response to your question, we have two or three panels judge the category and then have the most-experienced judge judge the top two or three beers from each of the flights from the same bottles. Yes, this is not ideal; yes, you usually get some yeast; yes, the initial judges need to make sure they leave enough beer for the best-of-category judging. Now, what really scares me was your statement: "in case two panels are very far apart." What you should be most worried about is if two panels are *close together*! I feel that you can never, never compare beers numerically from two different panels of judges. There is just too much variation between numerical assignments that you can't pick winners this way. Even if one panel's best beer is a 23 and the other's are all in the 40's, you should be suspicious. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com ------------------------------ From: "John A. Wilson" Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:20:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Here's an idea > > John Wilson writes: > > > > Basically, if we all disagree or > > agree that Sierra Nevada is the quintessential American pale ale > > > > Holy cow, not here too! This kind of biased thinking is scary. Yes, I And here I thought that the ability to "identify and describe a commercial example of each . . . " was part of BJCP cert exam. Are there recent revisions I should be privy to (even though I may never have to take it again)? Nope. > agree that SNPA is a fine example of the American Pale Ale style,but > "quintessential"? How can a person objectively judge a style when, even > subconciously, they are looking for a clone beer. Let's try to stick to the discussion at hand. Which, as I believe, was concentrated on the question of how apprentice and inexperienced judges would learn how to score beers which are widely available (of which SNPA is one, I am sure. I live in Reno and cant get the Mad River recommedation). In addition, let me state that the SNPA was merely a basis for hypothetical discussion based in style (unless you would like to send all of us a bottle of your home brew) not a competition to be judged via JudgeNet! Although I must say that a valid idea, if not the answer, has been posted on today's Judgenet. By looking at beers in categories the brewers (or advertisers!) never intended we should be able to answer fundamental questions such as "why is this not an IPA?" or better yet, "why is this beer being sold in an improper category?" Let's hear some more on this. John Wilson ------------------------------ From: Esbitter at aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 21:48:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Last Call for Homebrew Competition Entries (Randy Reed) Entries for the BJCP sanctioned Second Annual South Shore Brewoff are due March 15th! Ribbons will be awarded and judges will receive breakfast and lunch and a gift of appreciation. Information and entry forms can be found at the following Boston area-south Homebrew Shops: Witches Brew, 25 Baker St. Foxboro, MA (508)-543-0433 Barleycorn Enterprises, 149 Union St. Rockland, MA 02370 (617)-871-9399 Hoppy Brewer, 493 Central Ave. Seekonk, MA 02771 (508)-761-6615 Barley Malt & Vine, 26 Elliot St. Newton, MA 02161 (617)-630-1015 Brew Horizons, 884 Tiogue Ave., Coventry, RI 02816 (401)-589-2739 More info can also be found at our web site: http://members.aol.com/brewclub/ Mailing address for entries is South Shore Brew Club c/o Glenn Markel 1053 Pleasant Street Attleboro, MA 02703 Questions? Call Glenn Markel at 508-226-3249 or Randy Reed at 617-341-8170. Interested judges can call Stephen Rose at 508-821-4152 to sign up. Deadline for entry is MARCH 15! Judging occurs on Sunday the 23rd, in Easton, MA. GOOD LUCK! Randy ==================================================== +-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ + The Local Brewing Company + + ESBITTER at AOL.COM + Surfing the + Randy Reed + Information + BJCP Recognized SuperBikePath Beer Judge/Potscrubber + & + South Shore Brew Club + Web Wired + (Boston, MA Area - South) + World +-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-+ Visit the South Shore Brew Club at http://members.aol.com/brewclub/ ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1392 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.