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From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com
To: judge-digest at synchro.com
Subject:   judge-digest V1 #1389
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judge-digest              Friday, 21 February 1997      Volume 01 : Number 1389

 ============================================================================
       J u d g e N e t   -   t h e   b e e r   j u d g e   d i g e s t
 ============================================================================

 Moderator:        Chuck Cox          <chuck at synchro.com>
 Archivist:        Spencer Thomas     <spencer at umich.edu>
 Publisher:        SynchroSystems     <info at synchro.com>

 Submissions:      judge at synchro.com
 Subscriptions:    judge-request at synchro.com
 Archive:          http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge
 BJCP info:        geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com

 ============================================================================
 contents:

 Re: Here's an Idea
 co-BOS
 Simple score sheet
 Fwd: Here's an Idea
 Re: BOS / Titles / Respect / Humping Gorillas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at axel.vigra.com>
Date: 20 Feb 1997 07:25:46 -0800
Subject: Re: Here's an Idea

>> TashFam  writes:

Ed> I would like to suggest that the first of each month a style of
Ed> beer is chosen along with a national avaible beer that is a fair
Ed> representation of that style. Then readers of Judge Digest would
Ed> judge this beer and place their score and comments in Judge
Ed> Digest. This would give the writers practice and show beginners
Ed> how a score sheet should be filled out.

While this is a great idea and I agree that in theory it would
contribute to experience, in practice, there is a fatal flaw.  This
was brought up before and no one ever had an idea on how to get around
the flaw.  

The flaw is that the bottle which I taste is not the same bottle which
you taste.  As a perfect example, in our BJCP prep classes, we bought
at least 6 bottles of every style we were going to be tasting.  For
almost every beer, people's comments around the room would be widely
divergent on a couple of the tastes, for example, oxidation or
skunkiness.  When someone from the front of the room would then go
taste the bottle from the back of the room, they would agree with the
person in the back of the room.

Bottles of the same brand of beer bought in the same store have widely
varying flaws and/or flavor profiles.  How can we ever expect to have
any way of coordinating  evaluation of the "same" beers across the
whole nation????

I am not bringing this up to put down this idea, but would *really*
like for someone to come up with a solution.  I, too, am fairly new at
judging, so I may be overlooking that there is a simple solution.

In our BJCP exam, for the beers we had to evaulate, the proctor mixed
all the bottles of one brand together in a pitcher so that everyone in
the room would be tasting *exactly* the same beer.

dion

Organizer
America's Finest City Homebrew Competition  March 8, 1997
Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor
http://www.vigra.com/~hollen/AFCHBC.html

- ---
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
                                             http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California

------------------------------

From: "Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:36:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: co-BOS

Bob Paolino wrote:
>...We were down
>to the last two beers (and here comes a counterexample to the "big beer" 
>myth), and we had a hell of a time picking the BOS from between them.  The
>contenders?  An Imperial Stout and an American Wheat--how's that for
>different ends of the spectrum? [snip]
>But instead, one of them called the organiser over to ask whether
>awarding a "co-BOS" to each beer would be acceptable and, to my surprise,
>it was and we did.  Have others encountered competitions where a shared
>BOS was awarded?

Interesting story.  Seems like if you were looking for the one best beer
and thus were looking for a reason to disqualify one of those two finalists
and couldn't find a reason, then co-BOS was the best solution.  

***
Here's a question for competition people.  Does anyone think that a 
competition is somehow "incomplete" or inferior for not having a BOS award?
The vast majority of competitions do award a BOS prize, and it is
fun for judges and entrants to find out which of the winners was the
best.  But it is also a big pain for the organizers to get and store that extra
bottle when 90% of them aren't used.  

Thoughts?

  - Bryan Gros
   grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
   Music City Brewers, Nashville TN


------------------------------

From: Torbjorn Bull-Njaa <bull-njaa at interpost.no>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:19:18 +0100
Subject: Simple score sheet

Members of the beer judging societies:
In connection with a planned campaign aimed at increasing beer consumers' 
attention to beer tasting and beer quality, I am looking for advice on how 
to structure a simple scoring sheet for beer enthusiasts who, however, are 
not experienced at formal beer judging. The beers to be judged/rated are 
commercial products. Can anybody help?

Skaal and greetings from Norway
Torbjorn Bull-Njaa
private email bull-njaa at interpost.no

------------------------------

From: TashFam at aol.com
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 18:41:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Fwd: Here's an Idea

In a message dated 97-02-20 10:26:29 EST, hollen at axel.vigra.com (Dion
Hollenbeck) writes:

<< The flaw is that the bottle which I taste is not the same bottle which
 you taste.  As a perfect example, in our BJCP prep classes, we bought
 at least 6 bottles of every style we were going to be tasting.  For
 almost every beer, people's comments around the room would be widely
 divergent on a couple of the tastes, for example, oxidation or
 skunkiness.  When someone from the front of the room would then go
 taste the bottle from the back of the room, they would agree with the
 person in the back of the room.
 
 Bottles of the same brand of beer bought in the same store have widely
 varying flaws and/or flavor profiles.  How can we ever expect to have
 any way of coordinating  evaluation of the "same" beers across the
 whole nation????
  >>

I see your point about no two members drinking the same beer. I don't thank
that matters in this case. My main point is go get people to write comments
and show what kind of comments are needed to make the score sheet more
helpful to the homebrewers.
- ---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	hollen at axel.vigra.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
To:	TashFam at aol.com, judge at synchro.com
Date: 97-02-20 10:26:29 EST

>> TashFam  writes:

Ed> I would like to suggest that the first of each month a style of
Ed> beer is chosen along with a national avaible beer that is a fair
Ed> representation of that style. Then readers of Judge Digest would
Ed> judge this beer and place their score and comments in Judge
Ed> Digest. This would give the writers practice and show beginners
Ed> how a score sheet should be filled out.

While this is a great idea and I agree that in theory it would
contribute to experience, in practice, there is a fatal flaw.  This
was brought up before and no one ever had an idea on how to get around
the flaw.  

The flaw is that the bottle which I taste is not the same bottle which
you taste.  As a perfect example, in our BJCP prep classes, we bought
at least 6 bottles of every style we were going to be tasting.  For
almost every beer, people's comments around the room would be widely
divergent on a couple of the tastes, for example, oxidation or
skunkiness.  When someone from the front of the room would then go
taste the bottle from the back of the room, they would agree with the
person in the back of the room.

Bottles of the same brand of beer bought in the same store have widely
varying flaws and/or flavor profiles.  How can we ever expect to have
any way of coordinating  evaluation of the "same" beers across the
whole nation????

I am not bringing this up to put down this idea, but would *really*
like for someone to come up with a solution.  I, too, am fairly new at
judging, so I may be overlooking that there is a simple solution.

In our BJCP exam, for the beers we had to evaulate, the proctor mixed
all the bottles of one brand together in a pitcher so that everyone in
the room would be tasting *exactly* the same beer.

dion

Organizer
America's Finest City Homebrew Competition  March 8, 1997
Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor
http://www.vigra.com/~hollen/AFCHBC.html

- ---
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
                                             http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California


------------------------------

From: John Sullivan <sullvan at anet-stl.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:20:34 -0800
Subject: Re: BOS / Titles / Respect / Humping Gorillas

Bob Paolino comments:

> I have never been made to feel a "lesser" judge because of my low rank 
>("recognised forever": low exam score and experience points more than 
>sufficient for national, and with no immediate intentions to re-test 
>simply for the sake of a title) by higher ranking judges.

I've never been made to feel a "lesser" judge either by any judges that I 
have judged with... but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.  
Like you, I am Recognized, scored enough to pass and could give a 
hoot about advancing further up the Judge ladder.  I've also never judged 
a BOS.  Seems the competitions that I judge in (just local), I've always 
had a beer in the best of show round.  Hmmmm.... I think I'll take that 
over being a BOS judge anytime.  

The title that you have means nothing because your reputation must 
precede you for anyone to concede you honor anyway.  

"Hi, my name is Jim Bob Sparkledick and I am a Master Judge".  "OK Jim 
Bob, but who are you anwyay?  How bout since I don't know who you are and 
cannot attest to your skills, that I put you over here with these two 
novices judging the funky beers?.  Unless of course you wish to steward." 

I find it very unnerving that some think that BOS rounds need to be 
limited to Certified and higher.  What hogwash!  Judges such as Mr. 
Paolino are prime examples of Recognized Judges who really know their 
stuff.  There are many of us out here.   

I have known Certified and National judges (more than one of each) that 
many have privately laughed at for the justice that they do to the titles 
they hold.  I have also known some lower ranked judges and people with no 
credentials who could teach a thing or two to many of us.

Taking the test (and doing well on it) and showing up at a lot of 
competitions will not make you a great judge.  You must develop your own 
unique reputation.  Your titles mean nothing!  It is the EARNED respect 
that you are granted because of your CHARACTER and POLITENESS as well as 
your RECOGNIZED and PROVEN knowledge and skill that makes you a great 
judge. 

I fully expect some of you humpin' gorillas to flame away :). <<==note 
the smiley face.

John Sullivan
St. Louis, MO

------------------------------

End of judge-digest V1 #1389
****************************

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