Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr12.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr12.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.68]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03069 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:54:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from srvr7.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr7.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.69]) by srvr12.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA08163 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:49:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.37]) by srvr7.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA22906 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:47:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with X.500 id JAA08795; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:47:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay2.smtp.psi.net by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with ESMTP id JAA08759; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu6.psi.com by relay2.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id JAA27447; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA09268 for mvick at i2020.net; Wed, 19 Feb 97 09:45:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA01777 for judge-digest-outgoing; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:08:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:08:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199702191408.JAA01777 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1387 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Wednesday, 19 February 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1387 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Administration: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Re: BOS Judges BOS comments BOS Facilitator Re: BOS Selection Re: judge-digest V1 #1386 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jeff at edm.ca (Jeff Pinhey) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:12:48 -0400 Subject: Re: BOS Judges I have been fortunate(?) to have been selected for more than my share of BOS rounds. This was, in part, because one competition I normally go to selects BOS judges using a method that increases the odds of selecting the judges from farther away. He who made the most effort to get there has a better chance of doing the BOS. Add to that that my beers never seem to make it to that round so I am elgible... Anyway, I think that it is very important to know whether you are simply looking for the best one - then a process of elimination can be done, or actually scoring each beer with a fully completed score sheet, as some competitions want. Judges should be familiar with the styles they are judging, or should defer from comment if they are not, which, hopefully should not happen often. I am used to being required to find 1, 2 and 3 in the BOS round, and we have usually done it by comparison first, to knock out the clear non finalists, then used the scoresheet to assess the possibles. There has always been a mix of very experienced and medium experienced judges (the organizers use Certified and above only). The first time I was "coached" by a National judge on the beers I wasn't so comfortable with, and finally in trying to decide between a barley wine and a porter. This was done in such a manner as to not overly influence me one way or the other - to this day, I am not sure which beer the other judge favoured, but he helped me in my considerations. In the end, consensus rules, as it must. Ego has no place in judging - all one needs to do is enter beers regularly to keep your ego in check! I enjoy judging, not for any power it gives me over the entrants, but for the opportunity to carefully taste and evaluate, with others, so many good (and sometimes wonderful) beers. If it ever stops being fun, I'll stop. ####################################################### Jeff Pinhey, Halifax, Nova Scotia ------------------------------ From: Jim Busch Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:38:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: BOS comments Lots of good discussion on selection of the BOS panel! Just the fact that folks are thinking about this is good IMO. A few quick comments: Lots of us could care less about BJCP "points" and therefore ones "standing" means little regarding ones ability and knowledge. While I think its noble to "reward" folks with a seat on the BOS panel as a result of judging 25 Belgian ales, its dumb in reality. Palate fatigue is real, and moreso in some styles. Most National+ judges Ive met are damn fine folks with good credentials. This doesnt mean non-recognized, recognized or certified folks are less "worthy". The finest palates Ive ever quaffed with have no idea what a BJCP or AHA is. Jim Busch ------------------------------ From: Norman Dickenson Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:04:14 -0800 Subject: BOS Facilitator Subject: Time: 8:50 AM OFFICE MEMO BOS Facilitator Date: 2/18/97 In JD 1386 Kieran wrote: >i can see having fairly strong willed (and/or just plain rude) BoS >judges try to roll over inexperienced judges and a facilitator can >help move things along. Two things here. First, I am aghast at the war stories about egotistical and/or rude BoS judges. Maybe it's a regional thing, but having served on a number of BoS panels, I have never experienced any less than cooperative, congenial and qualified people all seeking to reach a concensus through polite discussion. If a BoS judge is as has been portrayed, then why the hell would an organizer use such a person? Am I missing something here? An experienced person's judging style becomes well known to his/ her peers. Second, the only facilitator I would expect to serve the BoS panel would be a super steward whose knowledge and experience enables instant recognition of how the BoS judges want to conduct their business. If a facilitator is needed to police how the BoS judges conduct themselves, then the wrong judges have been selected. - -norman- ------------------------------ From: "Rad Equipment" Date: 18 Feb 1997 09:22:49 U Subject: Re: BOS Selection Subject: RE>BOS Selection Time:8:24 AM Date:2/18/97 Bruce Stevens says: >Experience in style can be learned........ but freshness of palate and >diversity of mind cannot be regained at 5PM on judgment day? If I read this the way I think Bruce meant it (meaning it is a statement, not a question) then it sounds like an argument for staffing the BOS panel with judges who did "not" participate in the previous judging sessions. Was this not the issue raised by Ms. Robinson which began this debate? Putting aside the erronious conclusion which Bruce draws that increased rank automatically means increased ego (although I can certainly understand how he drew such a conclusion considering some of the examples of advanced rank judges he has to observe) I don't see where staffing the panel in advance is inherently a bad practice. Nor do I see many people responding to that aspect of this debate. The discussion has been built around two points of view. If I understand the arguments so far, one side advocates building a BOS panel as sort of a representative democracy to reflect the political disposition of those who are participating in the competition. The other side says build a BOS panel based on the abilities of the judges because the diversity of the beers on the table will require more experience and expertise. I have to say that while I tend to side with the "staff for optimal expertise" crowd, I myself am not a fan of even having a BOS. (Alas, I have made my arguments before in this forum and have come to accept that BOS is not going away so I have learned to live with it.) In any event, I also am not a big fan of excessive standardization and like to see diversity encouraged in homebrewing and its related competitions. I see no reason why both camps cannot coexist. As long as the entrants understand that there are different philosophical views concerning the BOS panel selection and that the same beer may not win the same honors at different events. Still, the question of staffing the BOS panel with judges "in advance" of the event, regardless of their political affiliations or expertise, was the original one raised and to which I responded. RW... PS: Bruce, your packet is in the mail... RW... Russ Wigglesworth (INTERNET: Rad_Equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu - RussWig at aol.com) UCSF Dept. of Radiology, San Francisco, CA (415) 476-3668 / Home (707) 769-0425 ------------------------------ From: Lev Desmarais Date: Tue, 18 Feb 97 23:13:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1386 At 07:38 AM 2/18/97 -0500, you wrote: > >judge-digest Tuesday, 18 February 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1386 > > ============================================================================ > contents: > > Gorillas in Heat > Bos judges: how it happens > BoS Facilitator > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, now people all this bickering over pretentious senior beer judges is like to scare off would be beer judges like me. I am taking the BJCP Exam for the first time in March. I subscribed to the Beer Judge Digest inorder to get a feel for the inside world of competition judgeing. That last digest did not make my aspirations of becoming a Master Judge sound very appealing. I have to get my two cents in about my home metroplex of Dallas. I will have you know that not all Senior Brewers in Dallas are "chest beating gorillas". Yes we have our fair share of bravado amongst the more serious brewers and beer judges. These bloated egos just tend to stand out in the crowd to the casual observer. If you are willing to spend some time in our fair city, you will find some quiet geniuses lying beneath the surface noise created by the strong willed power brokers. Back to the subject at hand, Beer Judging. Any good tips for taking the BJCP Exam? I have been brewing for a year and a half. I have brewed 14 all-grain beers. I have entered 5 AHA certified competitions. I have judged an NTHBA club competition. I have been a member of the NTHBA AHA recognized home brewers club for a year and a half. I have studied the works of Papazian, Dave Miller, and Michael Jackson. I have been a beer snob for past 16 years. Anything else I should be doing to increase my BJCP score? - - Lev =========================================================================== Lev K. Desmarais email: levd at airmail.net Home Page : http://web2.airmail.net/levd - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Programmer, Analyst, PDM Applications Engineer, Web Author, Brewer, Guitar-Slinger, Bassist, Harmonica Player, Pianist, Blues Man at large =========================================================================== ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1387 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.