Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr12.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr12.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.68]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA15922 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.36]) by srvr12.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA19408 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with X.500 id IAA15126; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:02:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with ESMTP id IAA15117; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:02:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu6.psi.com by relay4.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id IAA21200; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:01:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA21135 for at uumx.smtp.psi.net:briantulow at aol.com; Tue, 18 Feb 97 08:01:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA01610 for judge-digest-outgoing; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:38:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:38:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199702181238.HAA01610 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1386 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: judge-digest Tuesday, 18 February 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1386 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Administration: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Gorillas in Heat Bos judges: how it happens BoS Facilitator ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: korz at xnet.com Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:58:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Gorillas in Heat Bruce writes: >Far be it from me to select a group of Master and National judges who >will argue and beat their chest's like gorilla's in heat to win out over >a peer in front of the crowd. > > I much prefer to allow a diverse group of judges from different angles , > take up the sword and discuss the selection of BOS amongst themselves >like adults. There will be a leader but it's only necessary to move the >process along, not to lead the discussion. I don't know what the Master and National judges are like by you, but around here, I haven't met one that wasn't reasonable and level-headed. I've sat-on or listened-to more than 30 BOS and I've never heard any chest-beating. The BOSs I've been at have been the most enlightening, dignified, respectful exchanges among judges I've ever heard. If all your Master and National judges are that testasterone-driven, how can any flight get judged fairly? I know I personally tend to be very opinionated when I write and when I discuss issued, but I try to put that aside when I judge and make it a point to urge less-vocal judges to express their opinions. I've judged with *Novices* from whom I have coaxed opinions regarding flaws I missed in beers for which I've subsequently lowered my score. No judge is infallable and no judge (no matter how inexperienced) is incapable of teaching something to higher-ranking judges. Rank is really a measure of knowledge (exam) and experience (having judged many times), not a measure of judge quality... I think we all know this, but it doesn't hurt to remind ourselves of it. >The newer judges need to be allowed to butt heads with the know it alls, >albeit while learning from them. If it happens that a fresher palate >senses certain aspects in an entry and no one else takes up the reins to >ride herd for it , it is fitting that the individual duke it out with his >peers for the sheer virtue of it. How is a judge who has never judged Altbiers, Lambics, Berliner Weiss, Eisbocks, and Koelsches going to fairly evaluate these beers relative to their guidelines in a reasonable amount of time. With a good BOS steward (and, IMO, there is none better than Luann Fitzpatrick, who can serve up 104 perfect, sediment-free, glasses of beer from 26 categories in about 15 minutes... and still have a little reasonably un-cloudy beer left in each bottle, in case we need another taste!) you can take 26 first-place beers down to 5 finalists in 30 minutes. There's no time for looking up guidelines... you really should have had experience judging every style (not always possible, but always desirable in a BOS judge). [Say... how about a set of BJCP guidelines for BOS stewards and judges? I'd like to contribute if a subcommittee for this is created.] > Debate is necessary for a fair evaluation of the entrants and only a >diverse set of snouts will be functional in deciding the best of show on >that particular occasion and setting. *Every* snout is diverse... one need not include less-experienced judges to get sensory diversity. I too don't select strictly by rank, but it usually happens that the most-experienced judges (the ones who I know to have judged virtually every category at least two or fhree times) are going to be Master or National judges. >Experience in style can be learned........ but freshness of palate and >diversity of mind cannot be regained at 5PM on judgment day? Again, diversity of rank does not equal diversity of mind, nor does lower rank equal more open-ness of mind. >PS - The process for selecting the BOS winner is also important to this >discussion. I prefer the split into two panels and using the elimination >principal to move the process along within an hour. The panels each get >down to two or three semifinalists which can then be merged with the >other panels . With a good BOS steward, this is not necessary and makes it difficult to have enough beer for everyone to taste! Al. ------------------------------ From: "Thomas, Andrew R " Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:18:27 -0600 Subject: Bos judges: how it happens Bruce P Stevens in #1385 says choose a BOS judge leader and get some other newbies in there....represent the cross section of judges present. I disagree. Get some geographic representation on the panel? yes. Get some inexperienced judges there? no. Inexperienced judges dont usually know the difference between a pils and a helles. They will be guided through the bos by the experienced ones, and will normally defer to them. You might as well select one experienced bos judge and let him/her do it. I agree whole heartedly about the chest beating gorillas. I have been involved in two bos's in particular in texas (one very memorable dallas one) where the object was not to select the best beer, it was to show the most bravado. The rules were simple: 1) Talk first 2) Interrupt people when they talk 3) Laugh at the opinions of others 4) Ridicule others who disagree 5) Get in peoples faces 6) Dont be afraid to yell 7) If you dont know anything, take a stand on something anyway...just make it up This was the most disgusting scene I have ever witnessed. When we got the beers down to three, I was retasting them and thinking when one judge said "Well are you gonna vote or just sit there?". I dont like to vote on best of show. I like to discuss and do consensus. I wanted to slug him. Scott Birdwell and I both walked out shaking our heads. This kind of activity really has to stop. And I might add, there wasnt even anyone watching this crew. I cant imagine what would have happened if people were there. If getting three masters or nationals together means this has to happen, then I agree, put the newbies in there. But if people put their egos on the hat-rack, I think amazing things can happen. I have been involved in other BOS events such as New Orleans where people agreed, shook hands, stood around and basked in a good job for awhile, then went and ate gumbo together. What am I rambling about? A National judge with a chip on their shoulder is much worse than a certified judge who is a clear reasonable thinker. Dont just pick experience, look at the person too. ------------------------------ From: "Kieran O'Connor" Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:17:37 -0500 Subject: BoS Facilitator Whatever strategy you use for BoS panel selection, I think having a facilitator who is not judging the BoS is important. I filled this role at a competition and I think it helped move BoS along. i can see having fairly strong willed (and/or just plain rude) BoS judges try to roll over inexperienced judges and a facilitator can help move things along. Seemed to work in Utica, might be a good thing to try out at your comp. Kieran ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Kieran O'Connor Cortland City Schools/OCM BOCES Systems Consultant Syracuse, NY USA email: koconnor at cnyric.org (607) 753-6061 x2177 (M,W,F) (315) 433-8335 (T, Th) Pager: via BOCES helpdesk (315) 433-8345 Technology In Support of Education ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1386 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.