Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr7.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr7.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.69]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA08888 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.36]) by srvr7.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA17116 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:23:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with X.500 id JAA28706; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with ESMTP id JAA28676; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:23:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu6.psi.com by relay4.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id JAA09177; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA22081 for juknalis at ARSERRC.Gov; Tue, 11 Feb 97 09:23:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA01584 for judge-digest-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:50:55 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:50:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199702111350.IAA01584 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1380 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Tuesday, 11 February 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1380 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Administration: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Re: Professional Brewers entering HB comps RE: Poor judging, etc RE: Pros entering homebrew contests Communication ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dion Hollenbeck Date: 10 Feb 1997 08:19:18 -0800 Subject: Re: Professional Brewers entering HB comps >>>>> "Brian" == Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist) writes: Brian> Do you forbid professional brewers from entering your Brian> competitions? What about brewing consultants? The name George Brian> Fix comes to mind? As long as the "brewed at home" rule is maintained we allow pros. And in fact George has entered and placed in our competition in the past, but has not gotten BOS, that went to a local brewer, no pro. Brian> FWIW, my feeling is that professional brewers should not enter Brian> hb competitions. It seems that hb comps are basically amateur Brian> events. Besides the look of inpropriety if a prof brewer wins Brian> awards, especially the BOS award, I view it as almost Brian> unsportsmanlike behavior. I have to disagree here. There are pros who could not brew their way out of a wet paper bag. They are "cooks" who know how to follow a recipe and "cook up" a batch, but know not at all how to formulate one on their own. Just because one gets paid to brew, does not mean one is a an accomplished brewer. And in fact, I believe that a homebrewer has much more opportunity to learn the art of recipe crafting than a professional brewer does, given that dumping a 300 gallon batch of beer is quite expensive and a homebrewer has little at risk. dion QUAFF President Organizer America's Finest City Homebrew Competition March 8, 1997 Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor http://www.vigra.com/~hollen/AFCHBC.html - --- Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen at vigra.com http://www.vigra.com/~hollen Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California ------------------------------ From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:00:12 -0800 Subject: RE: Poor judging, etc Hi all, David Drinkwater wrote in to offer his opinions about beer judging. At the end he said, "We are all volunteers and hobbyists for the most part, so there really should be some room for tolerance in the judging and brewing community." I just cannot agree with this. Yes, we are volunteers, but people PAY to have their beers judged. I try my best to give them their money's worth. I feel ripped off when I get back shoddy score sheets. David also talks about his desire to not turn judging into too much work. Here again, I disagree. For me, beer is fun, and I try to brew, learn and judge as often as my schedule allows. That's the best way to improve judging AND brewing skills. I feel we owe it to contestants to learn as much as we can. The day it feels like work is the day I'll stop doing it! About my desire to see a syllabus, David suggests referring to homebrewing and Jackson texts. While these are good (even essential) reading for all judges and brewers, I was really suggesting something more uniform. In this way the BJCP could be assured that all judges have at least been trained in the same manner, *especially* in scoring technique. The current exam doesn't really do this. The essay portion shows overall knowledge, but the tasting portion really doesn't show much. As a first time test taker (presumably with little judging experience) you will probably score beers somewhat erratically. You will still pass the test, however, and get comments back like, "You'll improve as you gain experience." The BJCP needs to do something to ensure that the judges actually do improve with time. That is where feedback would be so useful. I certainly don't think it would be too much work for me to read over my score sheets with a copy of the recipe in hand, or to discuss my judging skills (or lack thereof) via E-mail with contestants. David also says: "Communication between judges, while verboten in some people's eyes, is probably the best way we have to improve judges performance." I agree that communication is the best way to expand your abilities in any subject, but NOT during the initial tasting of a beer. I have been to contests that are excessively noisy, with a fellow judge that just won't be quiet. It is distracting and annoying. It also looks exceedingly suspicious when 2 or 3 judges each have the EXACT same comments about a beer! I agree with Scott Bickham that the key to becoming a good judge and maintaining judging skills is self study. We should all try to make at least a few hours a month for this. Heck, it's not that tough. The next time you sit down with your friends to share a beer, discuss it with them. Ask them what they think. Explain the style, and the best commercial examples. Most people are interested in beer, and don't tire of talking about it too quickly, especially if it is an active conversation. You may even get a few new judges out of it! Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) ------------------------------ From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:06:54 -0800 Subject: RE: Pros entering homebrew contests Hi again, Brian asks if pro brewers should be allowed to enter homebrew contests. I can't see why not. As long as the beer is brewed at home, what difference does it make? It's still homebrew. Some may think that pros have more technical knowledge than most homebrewers. This may be true. This does NOT make them better brewers, though. I have had some staggeringly great homebrew, and some outrageously bad commercial beer. Many of you have probably had this same experience. The knowledge held by pro brewers is available to EVERYONE. It is up to the brewer to choose to learn and utilize it. Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) ------------------------------ From: korz at xnet.com Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:04:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Communication David writes: > Communication between judges, while verboten in some people's eyes, is >probably the best way we have to improve judges performance. Clearly, this >does require that good information be communicated, and that can be >difficult to control. Communication between judges is only discouraged during the initial evaluation and scoring of the beer. I, personally, mention to the other judges what problems I had (or what was great) with the beer once everyone is done scoring. The real problem is when someone smells or tastes a beer and says "EGADS!" or "YUCK!" It's difficult (especially for less- experienced judges) to not be influenced by these kinds of outbursts. Even a positive "mmmm...." can cause another judge to miss a flaw because the other judge "seemed to like the beer so much." So, I think the recommendation is (in the old judge's quidelines) to be silent till after the scores have been assigned and then discussion is encouraged. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1380 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.