Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr8.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr8.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.81]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA03877 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:13:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (0 at judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.37]) by srvr8.engin.umich.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA03897 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:13:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with X.500 id SAA04759; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:13:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay1.smtp.psi.net by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with ESMTP id SAA04751; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:13:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu6.psi.com by relay1.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id SAA01231; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:05:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA15822 for mike_wallace at ncsu.edu; Thu, 16 Jan 97 18:05:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA00191 for judge-digest-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:31:54 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:31:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199701162231.RAA00191 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1369 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Thursday, 16 January 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1369 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Administration: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Commercial Competitions/educating the public World Beer Cup vs. World Beer Championship Alternative to commercial competition judging via internet Professional Competition World Beer Cup Correction War of the Worts - Judges needed! Boston Homebrew Competition Announcement ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 12:40:30 -0800 Subject: Commercial Competitions/educating the public Hi all, Throughout this "BJCP commercial competition" thread there has been one common theme: most of us feel a need to educate consumers about beer. This is, of course, partly for selfish reasons, but is a good idea none the less. The more the general public knows about beer, the more good beer will be produced for all of us. With this in mind, lets rephrase the question we've been debating: Is a commercial competition the best way that the BJCP can work to educate the public? I don't think so. I believe that most people don't really understand how awards are earned at beer competitions. This only leads to confusion when Joe Drinker goes into the store looking for a new brew and sees a dozen breweries claiming medals. The style confusion being generated by some breweries is bad enough, why muddy the waters any more? Perhaps the best way we can go about educating consumers is by offering beer appreciation classes at local bars, and including distributors and retailers on the list of invitees. I've heard so many ridiculous things said by some beer retailers that it makes me sad. When these things are said to the average customer, they're taken as fact (i.e. "The brewer didn't take notes when he made Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout, so he won't be able to put the same amount of chocolate in it next year." or "Imported beers are preserved with formaldehyde, that's why I only have American beers here."). Perhaps we could educate from the top down, so to speak. Maybe developing a program that provides information about the best way to organize classes for the public would be a good direction to focus our energy. The beer classes currently organized in my area (NY city area) focus on judging skills and fairly detailed brewing process info. This probably isn't appropriate for Joe Drinker. Just my 4 cents (too long for 2 cents, sorry). Have fun, George de Piro (Nyack, NY) ------------------------------ From: jac at access.usa.net (John A. Carlson, Jr.) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:42:47 -0700 (MST) Subject: World Beer Cup vs. World Beer Championship John Carlson wrote: >> BTW, the major difference >> between the Great Amercian Beer Festival (GABF) and the World Beer Cup >> (WBC) is that the WBC was open to international entries as well as domestic >> and did not have a public component to it (i.e. festival) as the GABF does. Scott Bickham responds: >Actually, a more important difference is that well over half of the WBC >entries recieve awards - gold, silver or bronze medals. So essentially, >for the price of the entry fee, the brewers can advertise that their beer >was a "medal winner", when in fact the beer may not be a very good example >of the style. The GABF, on the other hand, is a true competition, with >the top beers rated in each category. I have a problem with the WBC, >since it obviously does not take much effort to win a bronze medal >(unlike most wine competitions) and the results are being used in a >way that is misleading to the consumer. This is incorrect. The World Beer *Cup* was held for the first time this summer in Vail, Colorado. I think Scott is confusing the World Beer Cup with the World Beer Championships. I attended both the GABF Professional Panel of Blind Tasters (PPBT) and the World Beer Cup Judge Panels. What I saw was a very professionally run competition with expert judges from around the globe evaulating commercial beer in a blind setting using a very detailed set of style guidelines. These judges consisted of people in the industry and well known beer writers, etc. Some of these folks are even BJCP judges. The beers chosen for awards were truly deserving of recognition for excellence. In summary, the World Beer Cup is a real competition and should not be compared or confused with the World Beer Championships. If anyone is interested in a more detailed description of the various existing professional competitions see pps. 60-63 in the1996 Brewer's Market Guide. I believe the results from the World Beer Cup can be found on the AOB website. - --John Carlson National ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Bergsman Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:16:47 -0800 Subject: Alternative to commercial competition I have been enjoying the thread about the commercial competition. A number of good objections have been raised to the idea, IMHO. Let me throw out an alternative idea that would achieve some of the same goals that people raised for the commercial comp., namely: Publicize the BJCP Make money for the BJCP Alert the public to good and bad beers Potentially shame/force brewers of bad beer to improve (?) My idea would be easier to coordinate and would avoid the small sample bias that Bob Paolino brought up (can you say Consumer Reports?). Are you ready? Here it is: Any BJCP judge who drinks any commercial beer may fill out a score sheet (maybe a special one for the purpose) and submit it to some organizer. Once a year the comments are somehow collated, averaged, etc. and published in a book! Or, if you are concerned about bias, informal mini blind tastings could be conducted at homebrew club meetings etc. at people's leisure. I know this kind of thing already goes on at many clubs, the only difference would be that blinding would be ensured and that the results would be (e)mailed in to the organizer. I think this proposal also deals with the bad handling issue. By having a large number of samples from the same batches that are sold to the public and handled in the same way as those sold to the public, any mistreatment that affects the score is actually a good thing since it reflects what the consumer is likely to get. In fact, we are probably more likely to know where to buy well-handled beer and to know how to treat it ourselves after purchase than most people. (Note that the score reported can show that it is an average of a wide or a narrow range, giving the reader an idea of what's out there.) {zzzzip} Ok, there's the final zipper on the asbestos suit, fire away! - -- Jeremy Bergsman mailto:jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb ------------------------------ From: kathy Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:32:46 -0500 Subject: judging via internet The commercial beer judging I'd like to see would be if we individually rated the beers via the internet, and provided our rank, date and name. A posting of the average scores with the number of submissions would be available and maybe something on the variance of the scores. This would be an interesting guide to help sharpen our judging skills and also to help promote the really good beers. If we could sell our silver, gold, bronze for some operating cash, I wouldn't mind. I would suggest the top and bottem 5% be tossed to keep ringers from trashing/boosting their competition/hometown products. jim booth, lansing, mi ------------------------------ From: PGarofal at USCCMAIL.uscc.bms.com Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:33:22 -0600 Subject: Professional Competition The recent discussion on a possible BJCP sanctioned professional competition (evaluation?) has raised some interesting points. Thanks, Dave, for stirring up some interesting commentary! I had the chance to speak with the head brewer at our local brewpub, and he spoke from the perspective of one who won an award at the '95 GABF (actually, his predecessor did). His description of the entry requirements, coupled with some comments from Bob Paolino, shed some light on the known excellent beers that are nonetheless "losers" at the GABF. First off, the entry requirement is four bottles plus a half barrel. Many brew pubs don't bottle, so this is a pain, plus a possible source of, shall we say, a less-than-optimum sample. The half barrel requirement precludes my friend from entering his barley wine, because it's just too dear to part with. I can sympathize there... The real kicker was this: the entries are required TWO MONTHS in advance!! Now, how many opportunities for mis-handling do you think exist in this time frame? Many brewers simply don't enter, for these or similar reasons. FWIW, he did express some (guarded) interest in a BJCP-sponsored competition. Then again, he's a former homebrewer and Certified BJCP judge... Cheers, Peter Garofalo ------------------------------ From: DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov (DAVE SAPSIS) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:42:22 -0800 Subject: World Beer Cup Scott writes (about the 1996 World Beer Cup): >Actually, a more important difference is that well over half of the >WBC entries recieve awards - gold, silver or bronze medals. Actually, there were 561 entries, and 146 medals awarded in 61 categories -- or 26%. Not well over half, but still a high percentage. There were not forced awards though, meaning that many categories did not result in three medal winners. More critically, he continues: >So essentially, for the price of the entry fee, the brewers can >advertise that their beer was a "medal winner", when in fact the beer >may not be a very good example of the style. The GABF, on the other >hand, is a true competition, with the top beers rated in each >category. I have a problem with the WBC, >since it obviously does not take much effort to win a bronze medal >(unlike most wine competitions) and the results are being used in a >way that is misleading to the consumer. I would argue that "in fact" doesn't exist, and that you *never* really know much about the quality of any beer without tasting it yourself. Also, I was under the impression that the two competitions were run identically, with the same set of judges. It could be that some of the winners in one were in fact losers in the other, or vice versa, but I fail to see any confirmation of actual and absolute quality in any of it. I have tasted a number of the winners of WBC, and of the samples I had, some were good and some were not. Just like every other judging/evaluation of commercial beers I have been exposed to. Were there any restrictions imposed such that Scott's comments regarding misrepresentation are accurate? I thought that the judges were supposed to recognize percieved absolute quality, not relative quality to the other entries in the category? Incidentally, please don't confuse this affair with our little homebrew comp -- the World Cup of Beer -- of which announcements will be coming forthwith. Cheers, --Dave Sapsis dave_sapsis at fire.ca.gov Competition Coordinator 1997 World Cup of Beer ------------------------------ From: Scott Bickham Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:22:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Correction It seems like the percentage of beers placing at the World Beer Cup is closer to 25%, though I would like to find out more about the differences between it and the GABF (judging, category selection, etc.) before I make any more assumptions. I knew the number of medals seemed high, and for a few weeks, it seemed like a *lot* of so-so beers advertised that they were medal winners. Of course "so-so" is my opinion. I'd also like to say that I also do not favor the GABF, though it has helped put US micros in the international spotlight. Of course there are problems with consistent judging, regulations that favor breweries with less transportation costs, etc., but in my experience, most of the beers that have placed at the GABF have been good or at the very least, interesting. Scott - -- ======================================================================== Naval Research Laboratory, Code 6691 E-mail: bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil Complex Systems Theory Branch Home or BJCP: 7507 Swan Point Way Washington, DC 20375 Columbia, MD 21045 (202) 404-8632 FAX: (202) 404-7546 (410) 290-7721 BJCP Web Page: http://www.execpc.com/~ddavison/bjcp.html ========================================================================= ------------------------------ From: folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 06:04:12 -0800 Subject: War of the Worts - Judges needed! Response to the War of the Worts contest, Jan 18th, has been overwhelming, we have at least 320 entries, far more than we imagined possible. The organizers appreciate the response, but it leaves us with one problem: !!!! WE NEED JUDGES !!!! - -If you've signed up already to judge, thank you and please be sure to attend. - -If you're a BJCP judge and in the greater Philadelphia area, why haven't you signed up ?! - -If you're down in the Washington area, we have ONE judge coming from there, where are all the rest of you? - -If you're the organizers out on Staten or Long Island that want ME to come judge in YOUR contests, hey, the turnpike has lanes going in both directions! It's only an hour or so from NYC. - -Where are the judges from Northern NJ? We provide all stewards and judges a hot lunch, a souvenir pint glass, and hopefully a good time at one of the best brewpubs in the area. If you'd like to help out, you can contact me at: Alan Folsom (215) 343-6851 folsom at ix.netcom.com or our judge coordinator: Rich Rosowski (215) 674-1278 richroso at msn.com Hurry! (and thanks) Al Folsom Competition Organizer ------------------------------ From: STROUDS at cliffy.polaroid.com Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:05:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Boston Homebrew Competition Announcement The Third Annual BOSTON HOMEBREW COMPETITION ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A BJCP registered homebrewing contest with over 70 recognized entry sub-categories, including Ciders. Results from this competition count toward the New England Home Brewer of the Year award. The competition ENTRY DEADLINE is Febrewary 15. The competition will be held in Boston (Allston, actually) MA on Febrewary 22nd. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Send entries to: International Beverages Inc. Attn: Boston Homebrew Competition 5 Mear Drive Holbrook, MA 02343 (phone for shipping purposes, do not call IBC: 617 767-9600) ALL entries will be judged by BJCP participant judges. This competition is sponsored and run by the Boston Wort Processors Brewing Club. I personally promise you a quality competition. COMPLETE INFORMATION can be found at www.wort.org/wort. Judging forms, entry forms, bottle labels, style guidelines, organizer contact lists, and other great stuff is there. Entry fee: $5 per entry, or $4 if entering 5 or more entries. Packets will be sent out to those sending e-mail to pete at wort.org (but pulling the stuff off the web page is faster and better.) Enter early, enter often. Regards PETE Peter Langlois Ik Objectief Bierproven pete at wort.org or pl at world.std.com ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1369 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.