Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr8.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr8.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.81]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA25699 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:34:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.36]) by srvr8.engin.umich.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA04822 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:34:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with X.500 id TAA27563; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:34:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with ESMTP id TAA27556; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu6.psi.com by relay4.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id TAA10816; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:33:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA00121 for thomaar at texaco.com; Sun, 5 Jan 97 19:33:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA00478 for judge-digest-outgoing; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:57:11 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:57:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199701052357.SAA00478 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1363 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Sunday, 5 January 1997 Volume 01 : Number 1363 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Administration: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: BJCP Professional Competition organizers who judge BJCP Exam in Hyde Park, NY Re: Competition staff cannot Re: Competition staff cannot ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Houseman, David L" Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:52:56 -0500 Subject: BJCP Professional Competition I've received comments from a couple micro/brewpub brewers who have problems with the GABF for various reasons and therefore do not enter. I seem to recall a number of comments here or HBD that were negative as well. This seemed to suggest that there might be room for an additional competition managed as a well run home-brew competition to the same rules, procedures and using the same AHA/BJCP style definitions as home-brewer competition. Only this competition would be open to only professional brewers (who we normally exclude). Same 3-bottle/entry, BJCP judges, we return feedback to the brewers. BJCP Sanctioned. Hold in the Spring and on the East Coast to balance the GABF held in the Fall in Colorado. While the BJCP is normally involved with just homebrewers, many homebrewers and judges go on to make their advocation their vocation. This could be a service we could provide to the micro/brewpub community by providing knowledgeable and timely feedback. Any comments or interest? Dave Houseman ------------------------------ From: "Thomas, Andrew R " Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:16:43 -0600 Subject: organizers who judge Roger Deschner, in JN #1362, states that organizers have to judge because of the trouble fielding enough judges for large competitions. Roger also includes the Dixie Cup in with the NHC as an example of large competitions which should ignore the rule. Roger goes on about unpackers who should get recycled as judges because you have to "take whoever you can get". I agree. know a little bit about how large comps run, having been a past organizer of a Dixie Cup. However, entries are unpacked in a megasession two weeks before the comp. Last year the DC was 985 entries, and after logging in all that your brain is mush. I agree, that some of entry loggers are eventual judges. It is a fact of life. I bet the Bluebonnet does it the same way. On the day of the competition, the organizer, judge organizer, and computer person do not judge. They generally get organizer points which are given in lieu of judging, if they are worried about the points. So in principal I agree with Roger, but I still think it is easy to honor the rule as written....."staff members should refrain....". It is simple to interpret staff as those who would receive organizer points for service. After that, you have to put people with integrity in key positions. ------------------------------ From: greg at kgn.ibm.com (Greg Holton) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:20:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: BJCP Exam in Hyde Park, NY Greg Holton RS/6000 Performance Poughkeepsie, NY {8-293 | 914-433}-8480 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 434 BJCP Exam to be offered in Hyde Park on 1/25/97. Details follow: ================= Test Date: January 25, 1997 (Saturday) Time: 10AM - 1PM (to be followed by a lunch outing) Location: Easy Street Cafe Rte. 9, Hyde Park,NY Contact Phone #: (914) 229-5941 Exam Fees: ========== 1st Time Taker = $50. Retakers = $30. ------------------------------ From: Norman Dickenson Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 09:45:08 -0800 Subject: Re: Competition staff cannot Subject: Time: 9:02 AM OFFICE MEMO RE>Competition staff cannot... Date: 1/2/97 Roger Drescher commented about the new BJCP competition point structure and especially the following wording about people who have access to entry materials serving as judges: >>NOTE: In order to maintain competition integrity, staff members with >>access to the entry data should refrain from judging as they may be >>able to associate entry numbers or entry descriptions with an >>entrant's identity. >I know this is going to bother purists, but I think a clarification is >necessary, to permit prospective judges to handle entries and entry >information prior to a competition, and still judge in that competition. >Logistics demands it. Serving on the committee that crafted the new points rules, I can attest that the committee discussed this very issue at great length with the purists and the pragmatists each offering compelling arguments. Please note that "should refrain from judging" does not have the same meaning as "must refrain from judging". One is a recommendation, the other is a rule. This was the great compromise. Roger is absolutely correct that sometimes it is absolutely necessary to draft as judges individuals who may have seen entries materials. Nevertheless, it should be avoided if at all possible. Roger does miss the point, though, by interpreting that the intent of the recommendation is to keep individuals from judging their own entries. I can't think of any competition that doesn't easily safeguard against that situation. >We must rely on the honor of the individual judges >involved in these activities to refrain from recording or memorizing >entry numbers and matching entrant names. And that's why it is a recommendation and not a rule. - -norman- ------------------------------ From: "Rad Equipment" Date: 5 Jan 1997 09:38:29 U Subject: Re: Competition staff cannot Subject: RE>Competition staff cannot judge? ??? Date: 1/5/97 Time: 9:22 AM Roger please note that the text reads "...should refrain from judging..." not WILL or MUST refrain from judging. It was left open as a suggestion for an ideal not as a directive. We all understand the dynamics of volunteerism and the committee heard all the same arguments that you made here. In the end it was agreed that this sentiment should be expressed so that it was understood that the goal was to keep the entries anonymous. Primarily we are looking at the Organizer and the Registrar who have complete access to the entry data at all times. I doubt if some guy unpacking entries and assigning numbers is going to be able to remember what was what by the time he gets to the judging table. Same goes for data entry folks. The quantity of entries alone will preclude their ability to associate a name with an entry number. We are not the Competition Police. No one is going to loose points if the registrar or organizer of a given competition is pressed into service as a pale ale judge. We are just suggesting that, if at all possible, judges not have access to entry data. RW... BEER JUDGE CERTIFICATION PROGRAM c/o Celebrator Beer News - PO Box 375 - Hayward CA 94543 414-299-9145 Russ Wigglesworth, Program Administrator Rad_Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu BJCP Web Site - http://www.execpc.com/~ddavison/bjcp.html ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1363 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.