Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr8.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr8.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.81]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA01905 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 23:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.37]) by srvr8.engin.umich.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA20641 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 23:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with X.500 id XAA10682; Wed, 29 May 1996 23:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uu6.psi.com by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with SMTP id XAA10667; Wed, 29 May 1996 23:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA02830 for ; Wed, 29 May 96 23:12:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA11244 for judge-digest-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 22:33:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 22:33:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199605300233.WAA11244 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1285 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Wednesday, 29 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1285 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Administration: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Re: NHC Judging Re: Judge Comments World Homebrew Competition beers Collapsed categories AHA regionals ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Dempsey Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 00:58:33 -0700 Subject: Re: NHC Judging In judge-digest Volume 01 : Number 1284 Mark Johnston says: > >Many people have been citing previous awards as evidence of poor judging. >(This took BOS at (local comp here) but only scored a (your "bad" score >here) at the NHC.) > >While there are many blatant examples of poor judging available, I'm not >entirely sure that this one is the best argument. Time, environment, and >handling can all colloborate to make two bottles from the same batch taste >radically different. This is my sentiment as well. I have the same sob story about how my beer was judged far lower at the NHC than a local event. But I can make the same comparison between many local events. Different judges in a different setting at a different time will yield different scores. Guaranteed. So I realize people are different and take these lumps as they come. I don't enjoy my beer any less after an unfavorable score. Let's face it, truly good judging happens only when you have an abundance of time and judges. Most competitions are run as one furious marathon using whatever judges show up. Only a few places around the country have the dense population of judges to do large events well. Otherwise, rare is the organizer who would not press whatever warm body is available to fill out a panel, or overload the available judges with 15 beers per flight in order to get the job finished on the appointed day. I'm often tempted to write in the flight size and session time along with the entry number. Then the entrant will understand why during the afternoon session on the 12th beer of the flight my writing is less legible and my comments less concise or constructive. I think the best thing we can do to ensure quality judging is to change the way we all run our competitions. - -- The Steve Dempsey Not the Intel Corporation views views of: 5200 Elam Young Pkwy of: +1 503 613 8070 Hillsboro, OR 97124-6497 PTD CAD / Pole C16 MS: RA1-303 ------------------------------ From: jdecarlo at mail04.mitre.org (John A. DeCarlo) Date: Tue, 28 May 96 08:24:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Judge Comments Mark Johnston writes: >On another note, there have been several comments made regarding the >similarity/dissimilarity of judge comments. (One says too hoppy, the other >not hopped enough, etc.) Disregarding, for the moment, issues of style >applicability and judge experience level, is it not also true that different >people have different threshold levels for ceratin smells and tastes? Would >this not account for disparate comments in some cases? I think this is a perfectly good explanation for two sheets that say "too much diacetyl" and one that says "slight diacetyl--not to style". If one of the judges is more sensitive to diacetyl, and they don't really contradict each other, that's fine. Also, if one sheet says "metallic flavor" and the other does not, that seems fine to me. One person is capable of perceiving this and the other not, for whatever reason. (All of these have happened to me). What is *not* acceptable, is for judges to write blatantly contradictory comments like "needs more hops" and "too hoppy--cut down on hops". Those judges should talk it out and come to some sort of understanding--calling in the judge coordinator/organizer for assistance if necessary. I have also been involved in this--sometimes winning, sometimes losing, but always with the goal of coming to a common understanding of what to expect for a style and how to evaluate the beer. ------------------------------ From: Robert Paolino Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 23:19:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: World Homebrew Competition beers Anyone try the "Longshot" (brewed by World Homebrew Competition, Boston Beer Company, Cincinnati, Ohio) beers yet? Okay, silly question. I tried two out of three of them (couldn't bring myself to buy the specialty), and while the dark lager was quite good, I had to wonder whether the American Pale Ale was dumbed-down in the translation to the commercial beer. At first, I simply found nothing there, but on second tasting, did find a pleasant enough hop flavour, albeit fairly subtle, and, at best, moderate bitterness. There was a decent enough estery character (in the flavour), too, that blended nicely with the hop flavour that was present. No significant hop character in the nose, and only a slight fruitiness (should be moderate to strong). IBUs, as printed on the label, are smack in the middle of the guideline. This is probably an unfair question, but are the judges for that beer out there? To the extent that you can possibly remember, is the commercial version anything at all like the original entry? (Surely, you ran out and tried the beer the moment it hit the shelves.) If I had encountered that beer in a competition, I'd look at the guideline (HIGH hop bitterness, flavour, and aroma) and reach in spirit for John Isenhour's green rubber stamp. I realise that you probably had to judge a hell of a lot of beer, so don't take this as a criticism of the judging. My question is more related to whether the commercial version is a good representation of the award winner (and to hear other folks' comments on them). Too bad they didn't print excerpts from judges' comments on the labels, eh? Maybe next year. Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino Madison rpaolino at earth.execpc.com Have a beer today... for your palate and for good health ------------------------------ From: Bill Giffin Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 22:26:44 -0500 Subject: Collapsed categories Top of the morning to ye all, Most competition state that if there are fewer then six entries the category will be collapsed into another category. What useful purpose does this serve? I can't think of any. Does it make the competition easier to judge? NO. Does it make the brewers happier? I never was happy when a beer of mine was collapsed and lost even though it very well could have won in its category and had in previous competitions. Collapsing categories should be discontinued as it is counter productive to the spirit of a good competition. I feel that we should have a rule that no category will be collapsed. May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows you are dead, Bill Bill Giffin 61 Pleasant St. Richmond, ME 04357 (207)-737-2015 All you need is a few good friends and plenty to drink because thirst is a terrible thing! ------------------------------ From: "Andrew R Thomas" Date: 29 May 1996 18:31:18 GMT Subject: AHA regionals - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MAIL MESSAGE IS FROM THE INTERNET AND MAY HAVE BEEN READ, COPIED, OR MODIFIED BY USERS OTHER THAN INTENDED RECIPIENTS. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Thomas, Houston, Tx., thomaar at texaco.com Having been called up and asked by Karen Barela would I organize an AHA regional, I really had to say no. Karen claims that the competition just barely breaks even. I cant believe it. But even if it does, how can you expect three organizers (at 5 judgeing points apiece) to run something that big. You cant do it with three people, so now you are employing others and giving away organizer points to boot. The AHA does have other money makers: Zymurgy, the growing-like-a-weed microbrewers conf., and the national convention. I would not think it would be a big deal to pay people for their trouble. Not a big payment. Say, a $1000 donation to the "host club" which will have to put the regional together. Ok, too much money causing problems there, some might do it for 500. But I gotta tell ya. I cant imagine how bad some people must need the judgeing points to do all of that work for 5 points.....essentially for nothing. When I asked Karen how much the Foam Rangers would stand to make on the regional, she said "you make nothing". I am afraid that is what we gave the AHA, too, and I dont mean to be spiteful here. I just think that there is a HUGE all volunteer army out there that is WORKING like CRAZY and at some point people are going to burn out. What if they had a competition and none of the regulars would host a regional? Then you would just have the regionals hosted by smaller clubs in more out-of-the-way places with less experience. Pat Baker once told me that as competitions get larger, they get crappier. I didnt think that was universal, but I am afraid it is the rule rather than the exception. Are you listening Pat? Anyway, rambling here, the Foam Rangers already have one big competition/year called the Dixie Cup, and cant psyche up to do two. My hat really goes off to those that try to run the regional. But if you run it, you have to run it right. andy ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1285 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.