Return-Path: owner-judge at synchro.com Received: from srvr8.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr8.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.81]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA22160 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 03:10:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from twins.rs.itd.umich.edu (twins.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.39]) by srvr8.engin.umich.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA10182 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 03:09:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by twins.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with X.500 id DAA28780; Fri, 24 May 1996 03:09:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uu6.psi.com by twins.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.5/2.2) with SMTP id DAA28775; Fri, 24 May 1996 03:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA10054 for ; Fri, 24 May 96 02:15:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA05515 for judge-digest-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 00:19:01 -0400 Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:19:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199605240419.AAA05515 at synchro.com> From: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com To: judge-digest at synchro.com Subject: judge-digest V1 #1283 Reply-To: judge at synchro.com Errors-To: owner-judge-digest at synchro.com Precedence: bulk judge-digest Friday, 24 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1283 ============================================================================ J u d g e N e t - t h e b e e r j u d g e d i g e s t ============================================================================ Moderator: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publisher: SynchroSystems Submissions: judge at synchro.com Administration: judge-request at synchro.com Archive: http://realbeer.com/spencer/judge BJCP info: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ============================================================================ contents: Re: AHA Nationals Re: BJCP home page quality of judging at AHA events (fwd) Re: Poor judging CABA's Annual Conference Program Tight Budget AHA Listening JD #1282 Re: judge-digest V1 #1281 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee C. Bussy" Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:49:36 -0500 Subject: Re: AHA Nationals Algis R Korzonas said this about AHA Nationals: > to how to improve this beer. With all the glowing comments I would > have expected something in the 40s. Sure, sometimes it's difficult > to put into words what needs improvement and when that happens, Hear hear. I always tell the judges around here... if you find a fault with it... it can't be a 40+, likewise, if you can't... it *has* to be over 40. That's the deal. TMartyn at aol.com says this about Judge Feedback: > 1. I put my e-mail address on every beer I judged. I meant to have a stamp > with address, phone #, etc., but didn't get it done. If I judged your beer, > please give me feedback. I encourage judges to do the same - you have to I agree wholeheartedly.. the only problem is I'm one of those judges who after judging Meads and Belgian Strongs I forget to put my name on the damned sheets. I do invite all of you (and I know there are many) whose beer I have judged to e-mail me with any comments you might have. Good, bad, ugly, whatever. Nobody's perfect. ------------------------------ From: walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist)) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:34:06 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: BJCP home page Bill Giffin wrote: > > Good morning, > > The first time I went and surfed to the BJCP home page I was impressed. > Someone is trying to do it right. I went out yesterday and the last update > was in January and the last listed BJCP Competition listed was the one in > Worchester on the 30th of March that I helped judge. Yeah, updating this would be nice. As would removing the little jab at the AHA where the style guidelines heading is (Not Official) Style Guidelines (but they are not AHA). But, I am glad the page is there updated or not. Maybe the BoD could assign the task of keeping it up to date to someone. I know I'd like to see minutes from BoD meetings, etc. up there as well as an up to date competition and exam schedule. I know it all takes time, and who has any to spare? > It amazes me, all you folks who are having difficulties with the AHA NHC, > surprise, surprise. The AHA NHC has been this way for at least the last > five years, you know poorly managed. Remember the AHA is just looking for > another bunch of funky recipes so they can sell more magazines. The World > Homebrew Competition again run by the AHA was also poorly managed. Aprentise > judge with aprentise judge to judge beers that they had never even consumed > let alone knew anything about. I do hope the AHA didn't get paid too much > for that gig. What the H*LL is up with all the AHA bashing lately? The AHA did have serious problems with the NHC 8-10 years ago. By breaking it down into regions they seem to have eliminated most of those. It does seem that the FLA organizer let them down this year though. My scoresheets came back just fine (although a little later than promised). Judge competency is partially the problem of organizer. It is up to him/her to make sure a sufficient number of qualified judges are judging. This is indirectly the AHAs fault for picking an incompetant orgainzer. The other part of the judge competency problem falls on the organization who certifies and educates them. That would be the BJCP (us). And yes, education is mentioned in the BJCP purpose. The World Beer Comp was put on by the Boston Beer Company. It was AHA sanctioned if I remember correctly, meaning the AHA received $40 for sanctioning and judge point recording fees. The BJCP was also supposed to receive a donation, but I don't know if they ever did. The BBC is getting rich selling the winning beers as we speak. Good Day, - --bjw Brian J Walter | walter at lamar.colostate.edu Chem Graduate Student | Homebrewer | RUSH Rocks Best! Colorado State Univ | BJCP Certified Beer Judge| Green Bay Packers Fort Collins, CO | Pres Mash Tongues HB Club| Eleven Times NFL Champs ------------------------------ From: walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist)) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:50:45 -0600 (MDT) Subject: quality of judging at AHA events (fwd) Jim Dipalma wrote: > In my opinion, one of the reasons the quality of judging at these events is > so uniformly poor is that the AHA has no requirement for minimal judging > experience when selecting clubs to host the club-onlys. Basically, the first > club that asks to host one of these events is allowed to do so, regardless of > whether the club has enough experienced judges or not. If this were not so, how The BJCP has no standards (that are enforeced any more so than the AHA's) as to who can sanction an event either. These problems fall at the blame of the organizers. The competitions I enter and judge in are all well run, but if there are comps so bad out there then maybe the AHA and BJCP should adopt some sort of probation program where competitions with bad track records aren't allowed to sanction until they correct certain things, etc. Good Day, - --bjw Brian J Walter | walter at lamar.colostate.edu Chem Graduate Student | Homebrewer | RUSH Rocks Best! Colorado State Univ | BJCP Certified Beer Judge| Green Bay Packers Fort Collins, CO | Pres Mash Tongues HB Club| Eleven Times NFL Champs ------------------------------ From: Scott Bickham Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 10:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Poor judging I would like to clarify Dennis' posting regarding sending copies of poor beer scoresheets to the BJCP and/or the AHA. There are three types of complaints: 1. Low scores from judges due to problems in perception. This would apply to my barleywine, which was scored 10-15 points too low compared to more experienced judges. There's really nothing that can be done here, since the BJCP cannot be responsible for individual judging ability. 2. Erratic scoring from inexperienced judges. The organizer or sanctioning body can however be contacted if it appears that no effort was made to have an experience taster on each panel. This would apply to scoresheets that I received from the AHA 1st round with *no* BJCP judge on the panel. This is the generally the fault of the organizer, and although it probably won't happen, the brewer should receive a refund of his or her entry fee. 3. Low scores combined with caustic, sarcastic or otherwise unhelpful remarks. These have been discussed here, and in this case, the judges are directly answerable for their comments. This would apply to some of Fred Hardy's scoresheets, where the judges, either out of ignorance or drunkeness, judged his braggots as if they were beers. In general, these complaints should be sent to the organizer of the competition, and can be effective forms of constructive criticism if they are forwarded to the judges. There is no BJCP policy on how to handle these issues without being too much of a "Big Brother", but I expect Dennis to at least forward the poor scoresheets to the judges and file a copy in his records. This probably muddies the water even more, but it's something to reflect on over the weekend. I like the idea of using mailing labels on the scoresheets, though some brewers might prefer to contact the judges anonymously. Scott - -- ======================================================================== Naval Research Laboratory, Code 6691 E-mail: bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil Complex Systems Theory Branch Home or BJCP: 7507 Swan Point Way Washington, D.C 20375 Columbia, MD 21045 (202) 404-8632 FAX: (202) 404-7546 (410) 290-7721 ========================================================================= ------------------------------ From: Pinhey Craig Date: Thu, 23 May 96 11:04:00 DST Subject: CABA's Annual Conference Program Here is a rundown of the Canadian Amateur Brewer's Association's 1996 Great Canadian Homebrew Conference. Feel free to post this to other forms or beer homepages. For registration, please call CABA at (416)462-9981 or write at 146 First Avenue, Toronto, Ontario, M4M 1X1 FRIDAY, JUNE 21 Meet & Greet at Dennison's Brewpub, Victoria Street, Toronto, at 7:30 pm, dinner at 8 SATURDAY, JUNE 22, the Masonic Lodge, 2040 Weston Road, Toronto, Ontario. 9:15 am - Registration 10 am - Keynote Speaker - Tom Ayres, Something's Brewing, Vermont 11 am - Hops Discussion 11:45 - Yeast - Mike Ligas, Teknayeast, & Breweer at Magnotta Brewery 12:30 - Beer Break 1:15 - Lunch 2:00 - Putting it Together (Recipe Design), Paul Dickey, Award Winning Brewer. Master Judge & CABA Past-President 2:45 - Panel Discussion 3:45 - How to Judge Beer - Jeff Pinhey, Award Winning Brewer, National Judge 4:15 - Beer Break 6:00 - Dinner After Dinner Guest Speaker - Rich Fortnum of F&M Breweries, Guelph, Ont. approx. 7:15 -> Close - Club Night - Homebrew sampling, judging of club beers, homebrews 10:30 - Close ------------------------------ From: Bill Giffin Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 23:40:48 -0500 Subject: Tight Budget Top of the morning to ye all, Fred Hardy said: > >Members of my club (we're small) cited risk of financial ruin (the AHA and >the regional organizers operate on a very tight budget) as one of two main >reasons. The other was that it is a bunch of work, and they saw no payoff >for their efforts. > How is it we can make money with only 230 entries and a site with 500-700 entries and $9 per entry is on a very tight budget? Perhaps if we do not have to give the lion share to the AHA then a club could make a bit of money running a regional site for the NHC. According to the financial statement that the AHA publishs the NHC makes quite a bit of money, and the conference makes a lot more. Don't forget that Zymurgy depends on all the winning recipes to sell the magizine. How much is that worth. I think that if the AHA put a bit more money into the regional sites we would have a much better competition. Will it happen? I don't think so. AHA is too damned selfish. May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows you are dead, Bill Bill Giffin 61 Pleasant St. Richmond, ME 04357 (207)-737-2015 All you need is a few good friends and plenty to drink because thirst is a terrible thing! ------------------------------ From: pubtools at pubs.ih.att.com Date: Thu, 23 May 96 11:57:41 CDT Subject: AHA Listening Jim writes: > Because, IMHO, the AHA does not give a rat's ass about the quality of judging >at their events. They are a non-profit organization only in the strictest legal >sense of the term. Quality of judging and feedback to brewers is secondary to >collection of entry and sanctioning fees. You're right, but for the wrong reason. The AHA staff simply don't know good judging from bad. Few people there actually know anything about homebrewing. Then Jim writes: > Two years ago,... > About a year later,... > More recently,... > The worst experience... and goes on to give several excellent examples of lousy judging because the judges at these Club-Only competitions didn't know the style they were judging or were generally incompetent. Did you send copies of the scoresheets to James Spence? Did you complain to anyone? If not, how will anyone know that something was wrong? > In my opinion, one of the reasons the quality of judging at these events is >so uniformly poor is that the AHA has no requirement for minimal judging >experience when selecting clubs to host the club-onlys. Right, and I agree there should be. Then Jim quotes scott and says: >>Are you listening, AHA? > > I'm sure they're listening Scott,... I'll bet they are not. On the other hand, we have the opportunity to make "BJCP Sanctioned" mean something. I think that all the talk lately about giving feedback back to judges on good and bad behavior is certainly a step in the right direction. What would you say to there being some guidelines for competitions (like minimally, one Certified judge per flight) to be sanctioned by the BJCP? Al. ------------------------------ From: Norman Dickenson Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:23:27 -0700 Subject: JD #1282 Subject: Time: 12:56 PM OFFICE MEMO JD #1282 Date: 5/23/96 Jim Dipalma said, >Not everyclub has the same level of judging expertise as the Wort >Processors or Sonoma Beeracrats. In order to get a consistently >good level of judging at these events(AHA Club Only Competitions), >the clubs with high levels of expertise will have to host the events >repeatedly. Since they are largely a money-losing or breakeven >proposition, the AHA would have to provide additional financial >support so the clubs could meet expenses. FWIW, the Sonoma Beerocrats, 10 time homebrew club of the year, has never, to the best of my knowledge, ever been ASKED if they would host a club only competition. The Beerocrats, with a Master, 4 National and a plethora of Certified and Recognized judges on its roster would probably welcome the recognition that such an offer would symbolize and could easily recruit highly qualified BJCP judges from throughout Northern California to participate. Go figure. - -norman- ------------------------------ From: BruDr at aol.com Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 20:11:53 -0400 Subject: Re: judge-digest V1 #1281 Although I hate to have my first judgenet reply a negative one, I must join in the chorus of complaints about the Florida site. Like many who have already commented, the fact that I had two beers make it to the second round was not enough to balance my extreme dissapointment in the quality of judging sheets I received. Without going into great detail, here are some examples of what I received. 1) My Imperial stout was judged a 28.5 and found to need either more malt or more hops depending on which judge you believe. The beer was "too thin" and "would do better as a sweet stout". This beer had an original gravity of1.087 and recently took BoS at T.R.A.S.H. VI. 2. The sum total of comments on the overall impression section for on entry was "needs work" (score = 30) 3. Under a different entry the overall impression section was left completely blank. 4. An American Pale Ale entry was given deductions because the "citrusy and hoppy aroma" was considered "not typical of style" (it was dry hopped with cascade) I agree completely that the AHA needs to make sure that the entry site has enough qualified judges in the general area to make sure the job is carried off with some sense of seriousness. Over half of the judging sheets returned to me were non-BJCP judges. I truly believe that many of these non--BJCP judges have never made a batch of homebrew in their lives and do not realize the labor intensiveness of homebrewing an all-grain batch of beer. In fact, how can anyone give constructive feedback about a beer (with regard to process flavor contributions) who has never brewed at some level? Since we have so few entries from WV , maybe the AHA will let us pick our site next year. Jeff Boggess, Ph.D. (recognized) ------------------------------ End of judge-digest V1 #1283 **************************** Send subscription cancellations & changes to judge-request at synchro.com. Messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored.