Return-Path: listadm at synchro.com Received: from srvr8.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr8.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.81]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA07434 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 03:04:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.36]) by srvr8.engin.umich.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA08887 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 03:03:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.4/2.2) with X.500 id DAA24377; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 03:03:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu6.psi.com by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.4/2.2) with SMTP id DAA24372; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 03:02:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA03900 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 96 02:15:41 -0500 Received: (from listadm at localhost) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA04698 for judge-recipients at synchro.com; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 01:10:00 -0500 Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 01:10:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199603020610.BAA04698 at synchro.com> To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) From: judge-owner at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Subject: JudgeNet Digest #1226 (Mar 01, 1996) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ JudgeNet Digest #1226 Fri 01 Mar 1996 JudgeNet The Beer Judge Digest digest submissions: judge at synchro.com administrative requests: judge-request at synchro.com send cancellations & rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored WWW Archives: http://www.umich.edu/~spencer/beer/judge Editor: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publishers: SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Anti-Prohibitionists may also be interested in LiBeerty: The Libertarian Beer Digest Subscription info: libeerty-request at synchro.com For BJCP General Information contact: geninfo at bjcp.synchro.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Contents: Who's Who (Mailing list Admin) Points per beer (Bill Giffin) Points, Complexity ("Manning Martin MP") worst scoresheet (John Isenhour) At the factory (Bill Giffin) flat or graduated rates/points per flight/org.pkgs/bad scoresheets/talking about scores (Robert Paolino) Competition Announcement (JOHN MITCHELL) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 00:05:02 -0500 From: Mailing list Admin Subject: Who's Who ###################################################################### ## ## ## JudgeNet - the beer judge digest ## ## ## ## subscriber list ## ## ## ## (addresses prefaced with '#' are relayed) ## ## ## ## copyright (c) 1995 C.C.Cox ## ## ## ## this information may not be redistributed or ## ## used for commercial purposes ## ## ## ###################################################################### # ### Relay Sites # beer.judge at f615.n109.z1.fidonet.org (The Enlightened Board) # ### Federation of Amateur Wine and Beer Guilds (FAWBG) - NL # # Master Wine Judge # victor.reijs at surfnet.nl (Victor Reijs) # ### National Guild of Wine and Beer Judges (NGWBJ) - UK # # Examiner # g.a.cooper at gre.ac.uk (Geoff Cooper) # ### Beer Judge Certification Program (BJCP) - North America # # Exam Director # bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil (Scott Bickham) # # Associate Directors # norman.dickenson at sonoma.edu (Norman Dickenson) rgarvin at btg.com (Rick Garvin) hall at buffa.enet.dec.com (Dan Hall) gsmithbeer at eworld.com (Gregg Smith) # # Board Chair # ddavison at execpc.com (Dennis Davison - MW) # # Board Secretary # darrylri at microsoft.com (Darryl Richman - NW) # # Board of Directors # steve at cent.com (Steve Daniel - GC) zymurgist at eworld.com (Roman Davis - SE) judge-relay at semantic.rsi.com (Bob Gorman - NE) malodah at pacbell.com (Martin Lodahl - WE) walzenbrew at aol.com (Gregory Walz - MA) # # Program Administrator # rad_equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu (Russ Wigglesworth) # # Regional Database Administrators # alkinchen at aol.com (Al Kinchen - GC) hopfen at iac.net (Ed Westemeier - MA) shamburg at mcs.com (Steve Hamburg - MW) koconnor at syr.edu (Kieran O'Connor - NE) #darrylri at microsoft.com (Darryl Richman - NW) mjl at email.unc.edu (Mike Lelivelt - SE) #rad_equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu (Russ Wigglesworth - WE) # # Master Judges # tayres at aol.com (Tom Ayers) stupidtoad at aol.com (Scott Birdwell) chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox) mferts at taec.com (Mike Fertsch) 75471.503 at compuserve.com (Philip Fleming) 75471.503 at compuserve.com (Philip Fleming) drbeer at tiac.net (Jay Hersh) korz at pubs.att.com (Al Korzonas) strouds at polaroid.com (Steve Stroud) # # National Judges # tartz at btg.com (Tim Artz) wknn70a at prodigy.com (Rob Bates) sblack at mail.utexas.edu (Stephen Black) rcolaizzi at gnn.com (Ralph Colaizzi) steved at ptdcs2.intel.com (Steve Dempsey) rdevine at microsoft.com (Bob Devine) farnsworth at eworld.com (Paul Farnsworth) Gregg at cis.compuserve.com (Gregg Glaser) theshek at rmii.com (Mark Groshek) fcmbh at access.digex.net (Fred Hardy) doug at teleport.com (Doug Henderson) jim at dwrock.dw.att.com (Jim Homer) dlh1 at trpo3.tredydev.unisys.com (David Houseman) isenhour at alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (John Isenhour) missingln at aol.com (Jim Link) afmccaul at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Tony Mccauley) danmcc at umich.edu (Dan McConnell) briannbs at earth.execpc.com (Brian North) olson99 at mack.Rt66.com (Gordon Olson) rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com (Rob Reed) wrs at slack.mv.com (Bill Slack) brewsmead at eworld.com (Bruce Stevens) stokes at maine.maine.edu (Martin Stokes) wotring at sluvca.slu.edu (Ginger Wotring) bosko at cyberportal.net (Julian Zelazny) # # Certified Judges # allison2 at gene.com (David Allison) toma at xcski.llnl.gov (Thomas Altenbach) kit.anderson at acornbbs.com (Kit Anderson) jack at wubios.wustl.edu (Jack Baty) baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu (Kinney Baughman) dlbrain at hops.entertain.com (Dan Brainard) brattstrom at aol.com (David Brattstrom) bronson at mcs.com (Edward Bronson) bill.brothers at dscmail.com (bill brothers) busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov (Jim Busch) leeb at southwind.net (Lee Bussy) skell at escape.com (Tom Cahalane) jcalen at aol.com (John Calen) akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (Chris Campanelli) cannon_tom at hq.navsea.navy.mil (Tom Cannon) jcarlson at du.edu (John Carlson) jcarlson at du.edu (John Carlson) lcarter at claven.idbsu.edu (Loren Carter) sc at vcc.com (Steve Casselman) cave at psc.org (Jim Cave) sdd6 at cornell.edu (Steve Daughhetee) tim at strange.mv.com (Tim Dawson) jdecarlo at mitre.org (John DeCarlo) ajdel at interramp.com (A.J. deLange) dipalma at sky.com (Jim DiPalma) fjdobner at ihgp.att.com (Frank Dobner) brewnews at aol.com (Phil Doersam) adugarm at worldbank.org (Delano DuGarm) pedwards at iquest.net (Paul Edwards) jimme at arc.umn.edu (Jim Ellingson) monk at vnet.ibm.com (Richard Evans) nfarrell at charon.ppco.com (Norman Farrell) fitz at fasicsv.fnal.gov (Tom Fitzpatrick) allen at darwin.sfbr.org (Allen Ford) gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane) jfrane at teleport.com (Jeff Frane) garofalo at aol.com (Peter Garofalo) pgarofal at usccmail.uscc.bms.com (Peter Garofalo) gellym at aviion.persoft.com (Mitch Gelly) billg at giffin.iii.net (Bill Giffin) Brudaddy at wwa.com (Chuck Gollay) greenlee at intersurf.com (Ed Greenlee) bhall at sparc.ecology.uga.edu (Bob Hall) hall at lanl.gov (Michael Hall) mwhanley at nysernet.org (Matthew Hanley) a10606 at mindlink.bc.ca (Ken Hardinge-Rooney) charris at u.washington.edu (Craig Harris) 76004.1610 at compuserve.com (Kerry Hauptli) khaycook at unicomp.net (Ken Haycook) mhenry at cheswicks.toadnet.org (Matt Henry) jhinken at accessone.com (Jim Hinken) holton at minnie.nic.kingston.ibm.com (Greg Holton) hak at lilly.com (Keith Houck) kbjohns at escape.com (Ken Johnsen) msjohnst at srvr.third-wave.com (Mark Johnston) klein at physics.berkeley.edu (David Klein) slamb at ghgcorp.com (Sean Lamb) jlandreman at atmel.com (John Landreman) rick at adc.com (Rick Larson) robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston) jel3 at cornell.edu (John Lenz) jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu (Jim Liddil) teknayst at mcmi.com (Michael Ligas) ed.lingel at tek.com (Ed Lingel) looneyke at lims.com (Keith Looney) tedm at cv.hp.com (Ted Manahan) mannin29 at eos.net (Martin Manning) sandor.mathe at prior.ca (Sandor Mathe) stmckenna at amoco.com (Steve McKenna) brownale at aol.com (Charlie Milan) stevem at phoenix.net (Steve Moore) idnemeth at gate.id.iit.edu (Christopher Nemeth) randy at cais.com (Randy Paul) ckp at acpub.duke.edu (Craig Pepin) dehtpkn9 at ibmmail.com (Calvin Perilloux) ag896 at detroit.freenet.org (Paul Philippon) piatz at cray.com (Steve Piatz) edm at fox.nstn.ns.ca (Jeff Pinhey) nerenner at umich.edu (Jeff Renner) resch at rmtc.central.sun.com (Dave Resch) ridgely at a1.cber.fda.gov (Bill Ridgely) ross at mscf.med.upenn.edu (Andy Ross) russell at spdc.ti.com (Steve Russell) brad.seibert at den.mmc.com (Brad Seibert) d_simon at lonestar.fallout.org (Darrell Simon) jimsnow at aol.com (Jim Snow) spsbeer at ins.infonet.net (Mike Snyder) spsbeer at netins.net (Mike Snyder) spencer at umich.edu (Spencer Thomas) sloansv at slip.net (Sloan Venables) svirgilio at eworld.com (Skip Virgilio) svirgilio at eworld.com (Skip Virgilio) walter at lamar.colostate.edu (Brian Walter) rbw1271 at husky.ca.boeing.com (Rich Webb) whbob at arcane.ucsd.edu (Robert Whritner) wolfe at act-12-po.act.org (Ed Wolfe) wolfgram at minn.net (Ronald Wolfgram) # # Recognized Judges # 74444.1666 at compuserve.com (Jon Allen) andy at fpusa.demon.co.uk (Andy Anderson) baier_t at salt.plu.edu (Tom Baier) chrisb3 at ix.netcom.com (Chris Balboni) ballhorn at optimage.com (Bill Ballhorn) scott at partech.com (Scott Barrett) jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu (Jeremy Bergsman) jeffb at shore.net (Jeff Biegert) brudr at aol.com (Jeff Boggess) kbooth at ingham.k12.mi.us (Jim Booth) kbooth at isd.ingham.k12.mi.us (Jim Booth) bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Rob Bradley) jbrown at earth.execpc.com (Jeffrey Brown) bbrowne at golder.com (Barry Browne) stephen_buonocore at nyccip01.lehman.com (Stephen Buonocore) jimcald at ix.netcom.com (jim caldwell) bobsbrew at aol.com (Bob Calhoun) chinsap at tormp103.allied.com (Peter Chin-Sang) 0002039152 at mcimail.com (Tom Clifton) gcb at fc.hp.com (Glenn Colon-Bonet) james at krl.com (James Cox) dalton at subpac.enet.dec.com (Tim Dalton) rmdavis at cal.mobil.com (Randy Davis) rmdavis at cal.mobil.com (Randy Davis) jdelapp at halcyon.com (John DeLapp) pauld at aristotle.saic.com (Paul Demmert) u52983 at uicvm.uic.edu (Roger Deschner) docherty at arco.com (Shane Docherty) drin0004 at tc.umn.edu (David Drinkwater) erickson_rb at atc.alcoa.com (Rolf Erickson) tee at cray.com (Tony Ernst) espouf at rpi.edu (Francois Espourteille) #bruce.feist at f615.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Bruce Feist) folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom) forbes at primenet.com (John Forbes) sfrimel at uceng.uc.edu (Steven Frimel) froeh at jpats.ecc.naa.rockwell.com (Michael Froehlich) mgaspard at mailer.scri.fsu.edu (Marc Gaspard) #polly.goldman at f615.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Polly Goldman) graff008 at maroon.tc.umn.edu (Kurt Graffunder) brew at devine.columbiasc.ncr.com (Jim Griggers) hadleyse at pweh.com (Scott Hadley) hagger at aol.com (Roger Haggett) joseph at joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph_N Hall) hamlec1 at medtronic.com (Cushing Hamlen) harwigp at clic.langley.af.mil (Paul Harwig) ehitchcock at sparc.uccb.ns.ca (Ed Hitchcock) ehitchcock at sparc.uccb.ns.ca (Ed Hitchcock) holton at donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Greg Holton) marhug at telecom.usu.edu (Marc Hugentobler) yeastme at aol.com (Keith Huizinga) jones_sa at atc.alcoa.com (Steven Jones) ao915 at detroit.freenet.org (Stephen Klump) kolodzie at casper.med.uth.tmc.edu (Steve Kolodziej) pkrebs at cris.com (Paul Krebs) pkrebs at cris.com (Paul Krebs) gwk at world.std.com (Greg Kushmerek) plfrog at aol.com (Peter LaFrance) plfrog at aol.com (Peter LaFrance) rll at cptech.com (Robert Lamothe) delbrew at pgh.nauticom.net (Nathaniel Lansing) jleak at vnet.ibm.com (John Leak) fjl at dpci.sannet.gov (Frank Leers) trl at wuerl.wustl.edu (Tom Leith) rich at lenihan.iii.net (Rich Lenihan) mlentz at bioch.tamu.edu (Mike Lentz) richard-lloyd at uokhsc.edu (Rick Lloyd) rnjloud at aol.com (Richard Loud) macala at pop.com (Jerry Macala) dedpetvet at aol.com (Bill MacKenzie) lakcobru at wwa.com (Rich Madole) manning_martin_mp at mcst.ae.ge.com (Martin Manning) mare at vetsci.agpharm.arizona.edu (John Mare) tmartyn at aol.com (Tom Martyn) starplex at magnum.wpe.com (John Mason) r.mcglew3 at genie.geis.com (Ray McGlew) asm at med.unc.edu (Andrew McKenzie) mumbly at netcom.com (Tim McNerney) michalski_jm at castor.wustl.edu (Jeff Michalski) john_mitchell at fmc.com (John Mitchell) scott at gordian.com (Scott Murphy) dann at sr.hp.com (Dan Needham) todd_nelson at gtech.com (Todd Nelson) gneuman at ppg.com (George Neuman) brwtopia at atlanta.com (Owen Ogletree) tolsen1 at aol.com (Tim Olsen) uswlsrap at ibmmail.com (Robert Paolino) rpmattie at omni.voicenet.com (Renee Peloquin_Mattie) krisperez at aol.com (Kristine Perez) wayne_l_pier at nslc.fmso.navy.mil (Wayne Pier) reegleyj at aol.com (Bradley Reeg) kjbrew at aol.com (Ken Rich) ja_rosen at qmail4.nba.TRW.com (Joel Rosen) richroso at msn.com (Rich Rosowski) drudolph at ix.netcom.com (Don Rudolph) rsantore at mailbox.syr.edu (Robert Santore) 102160.1456 at compuserve.com (Mark Schmitt) shoej at aol.com (David Schoemaker) kschutz at atmel.com (Kevin Schutz) psedgwick at aol.com (Paul Sedgwick) skeel at fcrfv2.ncifcrf.gov (Alison Skeel) sterner at cv.hp.com (John Sterner) stevens at stsci.edu (Mark Stevens) sullivan51 at aol.com (John Sullivan) kurt.swanson at dna.lth.se (Kurt Swanson) btalk at aol.com (Bob Talkiewicz) terfintt at apci.com (Terry Terfinko) trubracker at aol.com (Andrew Udalovas) 73113.1574 at compuserve.com (Steve Van_Noppen) mvick at i2020.net (Mark Vick) twaldon at fcc.gov (Tracy Waldon) 104030.3375 at compuserve.com (Todd Wallinger) wallinger at kktv.com (Todd Wallinger) beerwriter at aol.com (Alan Wax) jweerts at olympia.com (John Weerts) swh at ll.mit.edu (Sarah White) 73524.2447 at compuserve.com (Jim Wise) Jaw3 at aol.com (Jim Wise) lowguy at aol.com (Gilbert_Scott Wolfe) bmw at teleport.com (Brad Woods) steve at snake.appl.wpafb.af.mil (Steve Zabarnick) # # Apprentice Judges # anderegg at divnc.com (Murray Anderegg) paul at grammatech.com (Paul Anderson) thomas.w.ausfeld at dartmouth.edu (Tom Ausfeld) ckxb66b at prodigy.com (Bettina Barbier) dbeedle at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Dave Beedle) cdb1 at axe.humboldt.edu (Cary Bellak) gunnarb at stavanger.sgp.slb.com (Gunnar Berge) michael at wupsych.wustl.edu (Mike Biondo) mole at netcom.com (Aaron Birenboim) bliss at convex.com (Brian Bliss) blue at cam.nist.gov (Jim Blue) anders.bostrom at mollehem.se (Anders Bostrom) embreed at sfovmic1.vnet.ibm.com (Emily Breed) bli at psuvm.psu.edu (Jeff Brendle) munches at aol.com (Jim Brennan) eddie-brian at uiowa.edu (Eddie Brian) ray at hwr.arizona.edu (Ray Brice) jbbs at aol.com (Joe_Bob Briggs-Stratton) bronyaur at u.washington.edu (David Brockington) muh84 at aol.com (Kevin Brooks) brosnihan at aol.com (Frank Brosnihan) jpbrewing at aol.com (Jeffrey Brown) bbumbarg at acc.haverford.edu (Bruce Bumbarger) bush at shbf.se (Robert Bush) EJCABRERA at AOL.COM (Ed Cabrera) gcarlson at lib.drury.edu (Greg Carlson) charlie at halcyon.com (Charles Castellow) fchambers at aol.com (Frederick_M Chambers) coddfish at aol.com (Chris Coddington) coffel at crl.com (Karen Coffel) karen.coffel at ncal.kaiperm.org (Karen Coffel) zz11p9c at pentagon-emh6.army.mil (Peter Cooke) edcuz at aol.com (Ed Cousineau) 7059940 at mcimail.com (Harry Covert) kcreswick at aol.com (Kirk Creswick) gdanz at harris.com (George Danz) darling_ge at brutus.vought.com (Jerry Darling) psd1 at midway.uchicago.edu (Pratik Dave) briand at vt.edu (Brian Davidson) davidson at emba.uvm.edu (Darryl Davidson) gmdbrew2 at aol.com (Glenn Davis) gmdbrew2 at aol.com (Glenn Davis) palmer at ansoft.com (Palmer Davis) tdenny at rigel.cs.pdx.edu (Tom Denny) peteyone at maui.netwave.net (Steve DeRose) aderr at bbn.com (Alan Derr) DoubleDDD at aol.com (Don Dickinson) tdoak at genetics.utah.edu (Tom Doak) jgdoyle at uci.edu (Jim Doyle) akcs.jebel at vpnet.chi.il.us (Jason Ebel) kilers at aol.com. (Kevin Eilers) chrisbac at rice.edu (Chris Eisbach) sescorza at sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Sergio Escorza) darren at ua1vm.ua.edu (Darren Evans-Young) ron.ezetta at tek.com (Ron Ezetta) bjfabb at ccmail.monsanto.com (Brad Fabbri) 74650.1072 at compuserve.com (John Faulks) pblshr at aol.com (Tom Finan) jimfitz at netcom.com (Jim Fitzgerald) gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George Fix) jformane at students.uiuc.edu (Joe Formanek) francisco at lan.ccit.arizona.edu (John Francisco) TLF143 at aol.com (thomas fryer) rfugitt at ix-netcom.com (Ray Fugitt) sgarling at aol.com (Steve Garling) rgarr at cis.compuserve.com (Robin Garr) rgarvin at access.digex.net (Rick Garvin) tgaskell at e3sa.elab.syr.ge.com (Tom Gaskell) jason at gibson.sde.hp.com (Jason Goldman) sargee at aol.com (Chris Gordon) clgow at crl.com (Charlie Gow) green at hpmtaa.lvld.hp.com (Bob Green) greengj0 at seraph1.sewanee.edu (Greg Greene) egross at unix.cc.emory.edu (Lee Gross) juglr at intgp1.att.com (John Gunser) joseph-judge at joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Hall) psvenh at aol.com (Peter Hanson) herreras at bcvms.bc.edu (Stephen Herrera) rev_j at msn.com (Barry Hibbing) drzach at aol.com (Zach Hilgers) khinsman at aol.com (Kathy Hinsman) hirahara at pfizer.co.jp (Kazuhira Hirahara) hollen at vigra.com (Dion Hollenbeck) imakebeer at aol.com (Robert Hops) troy at oculus.jsei.ucla.edu (Troy Howard) jhump at aol.com (Jeff Humphreys) jhurley at netcore.ca (Thomas Hurley) hyre1 at muvms6.mu.wvnet.edu (Mark Hyre) minglis at ix.netcom.com (Mike Inglis) brewercam at aol.com (Cam Ireland) bmjermyn at aol.com. (Brian Jermyn) kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com (Kelly Jones) deronk at slpc.com (Deron Kazmaier) keane at cs.rutgers.edu (John Keane) keinert at iastate.edu (Fritz Keinert) mike.keller at genie.geis.com (Mike Keller) lfk at veritas.com (Lynn Kerby) dkerfoot at freenet.macatawa.org (Douglas Kerfoot) jason at mathworks.com (Jason Kinchen) kindel at aster.colorado (Bruce Kindel) jkinder at seraph1.sewanee.edu (Jackie Kinder) ekleber at qualcomm.com (Evan Kleber) bakremse at cmonster.county.anoka.mn.us (Betsy Kremser) dkryzan at aol.com (Doug Kryzan) jal at gonix.com (Jim Larsen) jal at techbook.com (Jim Larsen) mol at jyu.fi (Mika Latokartano) steve at inet.ttgva.con (Steven Lichtenberg) steve at pentagon-emh6.army.mil (Steve Lichtenberg) kari.likovuori at mol.fi (Kari Likovuori) lollr at hq36abw.andersen.af.mil (Ric Loll) ktl at kittyhawk.aero.rmit.oz.au (Katie Lord) macdonak at meena.cc.uregina.ca (Kerry Macdonald) magdek at lonexa.admin.rl.af.mil (Kevin Madge) johnmaj at aol.com (John Majetic) bteditor at aol.com (Stephen Mallery) mark.manteufel at toro.com (Mark Manteufel) lmatt at nando.net (Larry Matthews) jim at erie.net (Jim McCall) mccauley_je at lfs.loral.com (Joe McCauley) mchenry at syrres.com (Patrick Mchenry) sturdy at itsa.ucsf.edu (Sturdivant McKee) smessin100 at aol.com (Steve Messinger) ac051 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Eric Miller) ac051 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Eric Miller) p26948 at email.mot.com (Michael Millstone) dminbreb at Brazosport.cc.tx.us (Scott Mindrebo) dmindreb at gator1.brazosport.cc.tx.us (Scott Mindrebo) rmoore9011 at aol.com (Bob Moore) rmoucka at omn.com (Ron Moucka) damroc at aol.com (David Mroczkowski) tarfunk at aol.com (Mort O'Sullivan) gabriellepalmer at e-mail.com (Gabrielle Palmer) timp770515 at aol.com (Tim Papich) epearson at nr.infi.net (Ed Pearson) perkins at zippy.ho.att.com (Mark Perkins) epeters at rtp.semi.harris.com (Eric Peters) pflanzer at gate.net (David Pflanzer) philbric at bose.com (Drew Philbrick) jpilhoefer at aol.com (John Pilhoefer) pottle at cs.wisc.edu (Sam Pottle) brucep at dsinet.dgtl.com (Bruce Powell) tpuskar at aol.com (Tom Puskar) steveq at teleport.com (Stephen Quarterman) cyberbilly at aol.com (Tod Ralstin) mratliff at gatecoms.gatecom.com (Mark Ratliff) wildcat at teleport.com (Ken Rea) rroberts at ccpace.com (Rock Roberts) dave at cdf.ca.gov (Dave Sapsis) dave_sapsis at fire.ca.gov (David Sapsis) ssmith1 at drew.edu (Suzette Smith) speaker at ehs.psu.edu (Curt Speaker) james at aob.org (James Spence) spiess at norand.com (Gary Spiess) obcts at ccmail.ceco.com (Thomas Stolfi) rswan1 at aol.com (Robert Swan) taratoot at peak.org (mark taratoot) nthaggard at aol.com (Neill Thaggard) briantulow at aol.com (Brian Tulowiecki) juknalis at arserrc.gov (Joe Uknalis) vitt at rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Leo Vitt) chris.vyhnal at dartmouth.edu (chris vyhnal) nccomed1 at aol.com (William Wagner) mike_wallace at ncsu.edu (Mike Wallace) walls at e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com (Scott Walls) waltman at netcom.com (Fred Waltman) weaver at spdc.ti.com (Tyler Weaver) FermEdit at aol.com (Fred Westendarp) chuckmw at mcs.com (Chuck Wettergreen) whitingt at iex.com (Mitchel Whitington) beer at novalink.com (Gary Whitten) bhwilson at delphi.com (Larry Wilson) wolff at eclus.bwi.wec.com (Bob Wolff) mpw0001 at jove.acs.unt.edu (Matthew Woodward) wrigleyd at ohsu.edu (David Wrigley) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 07:21:39 -0600 From: billg at giffin.iii.net (Bill Giffin) Subject: Points per beer Morning, Athough the points per beer is an interesting idea; It provide no more information about the qualifications of a judge then the present system. Why add complexity for no gain. Bill ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 1996 09:33:49 U From: "Manning Martin MP" Subject: Points, Complexity Mike Lelivelt said: >But seriously, the database people (myself included) can barely keep track >of the point system we have now. And people are suggesting a more complex >system? We'd all be bugging Russ daily. "No Russ, I judged 12 bitters >that day, not 11. I'm only 0.1 points away from National. I need that >tenth of a point." It's ONE point per beer, no decimals, only integers. I really don't think it's more complex, what with all the conditions that are imposed on point awards now. (I'm starting to feel like a "flat tax" proponent, here) Anyway, I hope the last two paragraphs of my mostly-repeated post yesterday didn't get ignored (honest, I got a returned mail notice, with the comment "unsent message follows"). Again, I don't think this is too hard if each judge is asked to turn in a summary of his or her activity for each competition. This becomes the document that is forwarded to the DBA's for point recording. The best thing would be to somehow have each judge keep a copy of what he turned in, then there would be no arguments. >a big problem in point >recording occurs when more BoS judges are on a panel then points can be >awarded. For the good of the competition, I see no problem in having 4 or >5 judges at a 40 entry competition. However, the organizer needs to inform >the judges who will be awarded points, and that they others should not >expect additional BoS points. Then six months later, Mr, or Ms. BJCP judge >e mails the db person and says, "I judged BoS there." This requires >digging up the organizer's report to convince the judge that the >competition was only allowed to give x BoS points away. This is easy to fix. Set the level of point awards for BoS on a per-beer basis, and every judge on the panel gets the same point award. The size of the panel could still be limited by rule, but all seated judges would be fully compensated for the experience gained. MPM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:52:32 -0600 (CST) From: isenhour at alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (John Isenhour) Subject: worst scoresheet The worst scoresheet I ever saw was around 1986 or '87, from the AHA national (before first round started). The only comment was... This don't do it for me. john - -- John Isenhour "unix is not your mother" Brewmaster/National Judge Joe's (psycho) Brewery Library & Information Science isenhour at uiuc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 10:18:04 -0600 From: billg at giffin.iii.net (Bill Giffin) Subject: At the factory Once upon a time..... Herbert and Gertrude went to get a job at the factory. When they arrived Herbert and Gertrude were informed that they would have to pass an examination to get a job at the factory. So Herbert and Gertrude went away and acquired a good study guide for the examination and bought all the books listed in the study guide. Herbert and Gertrude studied and studied and crammed to pass the examination at the factory. Herbert and Gertrude went back to the factory and took the examination and did very well and they were both hired with no references, no experience or recommendation at the factory. Herbert and Gertrude each completed five small jobs, which were part of a moderate projects, each within a short time of their hiring . Herbert and Gertrude were both promoted to supervisor without any evaluation nor any review or quality assurance at the factory. Herbert and Gertrude thought that they really must be doing a wonderful job because they were promoted that they each decided to do a couple of moderate sized projects and they each did five more small jobs, all part of other moderate sized projects and wonder of wonder they were promoted again to foreman; with no evaluation, no review, nor any quality assurance at the factory. Herbert and Gertrude were so impressed with themselves for being promoted again that they did ten more small jobs and a couple of moderate sized jobs. Wow they were promoted again this time to vice- presidents still with no evaluation, no review, nor any quality assurance at the factory. Herbert and Gertrude were so excited they were so good at what they did that they decided to do a bunch more little jobs and a number of moderate project as well as grading a number of examinations and giving a couple of examinations. Lo and behold they were promoted again this time Gertrude was made Chairman of the Board and CEO and Herbert was made president. They lived happily ever after at the factory. Bill May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows you are dead, Bill Bill Giffin 61 Pleasant St. Richmond, ME 04357 (207)-737-2015 All you need is a few good friends and plenty to drink because thirst is a terrible thing! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:20:49 -0600 (CST) From: Robert Paolino Subject: flat or graduated rates/points per flight/org.pkgs/bad scoresheets/talking about scores Steve Moore responded to my comments on flat rates: >When I ran a large contest (Dixie Cup '94), I did not find that we benefitted >from economies of scale. In fact, It's somewhat the opposite. With a 75 or 100 >entry contest, you can just round up all the local judges and get the job done >in one day. When you've got 400-600+ entries, you need to spend more money on >promotion and special events in order to attract judges from other cities or Ummm.... Which came first, promoting the contest or the 400-600+ entries? :-) If all those extra expenses are a problem, then don't go for such huge numbers of entries. And if you _do_ seek those kinds of numbers, you have an _obligation_ to the entrants to be sure you have enough competent judges. I've entered one of those mega-competitions (not Dixie Cup) where it was evident that the judge pool was stretched a bit too thin when I got comments like "this style (American Brown) should have an overall malty balance; too hoppy." And let's remember where this started--it was sanctioning fees, nothing more. If you charge a reasonable entry fee of $3 or $4, your revenues on a 400-600 entry competition are $1200-$2400, and some competitions charge obscene fees (flame retardant suit on) of $6 or even more. $40 for the AHA or $20 + $1/judge for the BJCP is a tiny fraction of that revenue. An extra dozen entries covers the sanctioning fee, and you still have the other 500 entry fees to pay for the food, speakers, et cetera. ------------------------------ Mike Lelivelt (lelivelt at med.unc.edu) said: > Now I'm going to go have one of Bob Paolino's beers and move to Madison WI Welcome to the Beer Capital of the Midwest, and the Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild! We'll find some work and beer for you to do at the Tenth Anniversary Great Taste of the Midwest. (PLUG, PLUG: August 10, $16, unlimited sampling--no annoying beer tokens, 50- 60+ breweries/200+ beers, tickets go on sale May 1 and not a day earlier. Expect it to be sold out by June. Mail payment and SASE to MHTG, Box 1365, Madison, WI 53701-1365 (checks payable to MHTG). A substantial portion of the proceeds goes to community radio WORT/89.9 FM. - ---------------- Tom Leith writes: > Spencer Thomas Writes: >>How about a point per flight? This addresses the issue of different > >I personally like this because experience is a function of both the number >of beers of a single type one critically evaluates AND the number of types >with which one has experience. The point-per-flight scheme addresses both >issues and keeps things simple. Uh, oh! Looks like that style certification thing creeping in again. Not that it would be a bad idea in an "ideal" world, but it sure doesn't keep things simple. > How `bout "other" experience points? For example, I do quite a bit of > judging at club-only competitions. There is essentially one flight of . . . . > experience by some fraction. Suppose the homebrew club played "organizer" > and sent in the names & point recordation fee? Would this be something to > consider??? Sure, go ahead and sanction the competition. But I bet you wouldn't want to spend $20-something to do it. Here's another argument for a graduated scale. For _very_ small competitions such as these, maybe a $10 fee and 1/4 point per judge? ------------------------------ Steve Casselman (sc at vcc.com) wrote: > If you run a compitition and you use anything out of the the AHA > package to do it (like the scoresheet) you should pay the AHA fee. > Otherwise this would be plagerism which gets people fired from > universities and other bad things. I look at it as flat out stealing. > But of course I don't count. You forgot the ;-) after that last sentence :-). The original comparison was between the _organiser's guides_ provided by the BJCP and the AHA. It was framed as a package that one purchased, and the original writer thought the AHA offered better materials. Is it plagiarism to buy a book and retain (and pass on) the knowledge gained from using it? Do you pay additional tuition or a "royalty" everytime you apply a bit of knowledge you learned in a class? Entry forms are another thing--using an AHA entry form for a non-AHA competition may mislead entrants and should not be done. - ------------------ Al Korzonas (korz at pubs.ih.att.com) wrote: > Are the Nationals a crap shoot? I'll say... if you are lucky enough to get > a couple of judges that give a damn, you have a fair chance. If you don't, > then you might as well save your $10 (don't forget shipping). Is this the same Al Korzonas who entered _how many_ beers in the AHA last year? :-) Should we expect a little more restraint this year? :-) :-) ------------------------------ Rick Larson (rick at adc.com) wrote: > Do judges talk about each other's written comments per beer? > When I head a table and after we agree within a few points > on a score, I state my comments to the group. I find this > not only helps me fill in the score sheet but gives the less > experienced judges some examples to use. > If the judge was at my table, I would have suggested to add > more info to the score sheet. Maybe the head judge at the > table should be responsible for the flight. "Hey Pete, Rick makes a good point about discussing the comments on an entry. I would be cautious, however, about suggesting that a judge should simply add someone else's comments to his/her own sheet ("gives the less experienced judges some examples to use."). Seeing the same comment on two different sheets when it is really only one person's observation does not help the entrant. Talk about the entries, take responsibility for giving meaningful comments, and all that, but the comments should be your own--one judge's impressions should not dominate the others and be dutifully copied onto the other sheets. > I have judged at tables where the score was agreed but > who knows what was written down. Sure the beer scored > a 28 by all four judges but do they all agree? Here's where you need to talk. If different judges have contradictory comments (or simply do not have the comments to substantiate the score given on a particular part of a score sheet), talk them out to see if the inconsistency can be reconciled or to point out things that another judge may have missed. In the end, though, if two judges simply disagree on a characteristic it's better to leave those comments stand than to change them solely for the sake of uniformity. Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino uswlsrap at ibmmail.com Madison rpaolino at earth.execpc.com Winner of the 1995 Great Dane Challenge The winning "NGHAB American Special Bitter," dry-hopped with lots of Columbus, is available on the beer engine FeBREWary 9 through (??) Dr. Ruth Westheimer recently noted that hops are an aphrodisiac. Damn! I've been giving my beer away to the wrong people :-( ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 21:45:06 -0600 From: john_mitchell at fmc.com (JOHN MITCHELL) Subject: Competition Announcement The Carolina Brewmasters present the 1996 U.S. Open on April 20, 1996 at Picasso's Sports Cafe in Charlotte, NC. This BJCP recognized competition will use the 1996 AHA categories, with the exclusion of sake and cider. Meads will be judged, but will not be eligible for best of show. Prizes include microbrewed beer and specialty ingredients, along with ribbons and a plaque for Best of Show. Last year's U.S. Open had over 200 entries. There is a sliding entry fee scale, with the first entry $6, $5 for the second and third, and $4 for all additional entries. All entries are due by April 15. Contact John Mitchell at 2358-H Pineview Lane, Gastonia, NC 28054, (704)864-3450, john_mitchell at fmc.com, to request information packets and entry forms or to register to steward or judge. ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************ -------