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Subject: JudgeNet Digest #1202 (Jan 23, 1996)
Date: 23 Jan 96 01:17:52 EST (Tue)
Message-Id: <9601230117.AA12403 at synchro.com>


JudgeNet Digest #1202				   Tue 23 Jan 1996


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Contents:
  Hops in Braggot                          (Fred Hardy)
  War of The Worts Competition             (Alan Folsom)
  A Food Plea                              (Greg Kushmerek)
  Alts and test questions                  (Algis R Korzonas)
  Re: JudgeNet Digest #1200 (J             ("Rad Equipment")
  Poor job                                 ("Bill Giffin")

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:41:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Fred Hardy <fcmbh at access.digex.net>
Subject: Hops in Braggot


Gordon Olson disagrees with my argument that hops should not be in 
braggot. He agrees with the AHA rule that if 50% of the fermentables are 
honey it is a mead, regardless of hop level. Please, Gordon, give me the 
reference to this AHA "rule." It is not one I'm familiar with. I have 
heard that this is the guideline for the Mazer Cup, though I have not 
verified it. If the Mazer Cup allows hops, so be it. I simply refer to 
AHA guidelines.

If you really like AHA rules, consider zero IBUs for Braggot. I still 
think zero equates to none, which, in the case of braggot, is also 
historically correct.

In Gordon's post he states that he judged a metheglin which contained 
hops, but the hops did not make it a beer. OK, what's the point? Hops, 
like any other herb, have always been allowed in metheglin, simply 
because they have never been excluded and they are an herb.

Gordon also correctly points out that AHA guidelines are just that, and 
that IBUs for braggot sould be able to range from zero to whatever. This 
is a strange assertion for a National judge to make. I wonder how he 
would judge an opaque Pale Ale, or an American lager that had 50 IBUs?

Notice that the AHA 0 IBU guideline for braggot is not a range, it is a 
single number.

As for spices in braggot, it is historically correct and, like hops in 
metheglin, has never been excluded. I agree that we should not get hung 
up on "historically correct" styles and ignore today's changes in 
technique, etc. Gordon, go find me a commercial 20th century braggot 
with hops in it, and I'll be swayed.

Gordon also claims that hops were illegal in English beer during the Middle 
Ages. This is not true, though some local guilds may have had such a 
rule. Hops were not prevalent in English beers because the English felt 
they were harmful. English beliefs placed great emphasis on medicinal 
value of herbs, and hops had none. Cinnamon, cloves, nutmeg and many 
others were greatly favored, and almost certainly were in beer and braggot.

My only complaint with the AHA braggot guidelines is the color, and that 
complaint is based on the brewing reality that the upper range of the 
color guideline is essentially the bottom of color possibilities. Opening 
the range allows for creative braggot brewing. Hold the hops, however. Hops 
in braggot is as creative as agressive use of ginger in a Bohemian 
Pilsner. It ain't creative, it's silly, and not to style.

Too often judges grade a style with which they are unfamiliar simply on 
whether or not they liked the taste. Braggot often falls into this 
category. Judges are ignorant of its origins, and not familiar with the 
range of flavors. If it smells like honey and has some malt taste, it 
must be braggot. Obviously, I disagree, and simply want judges to pay 
more attention to the style guideline the beverage should be measured 
against.

Cheers, Fred

==============================================================================
We must invent the future, else it will  |          <Fred Hardy>
happen to us and we will not like it.    |
[Stafford Beer, "Platform for Change"]   |    email: fcmbh at access.digex.net


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 06:45:56 -0800
From: folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom)
Subject: War of The Worts Competition

The Keystone Hops' War of the Worts competition, was by all the early 
evidence, a great success.  The organizing committee would like to 
thank all the judges, stewards, and especially the brewers who 
contributed to the contest.  181 beers were entered and judged in 14 
categories.  Chuck Hanning won Best of Show with his Dubbel.

Boo, hiss to the five judges who said they were coming and didn't show.

Score sheets and results will be mailed as soon as we can stand dealing 
with them again.  In the meantime, if anyone would like a list of all 
the winners, send me email and I'll get it out to you electronically.

Any feedback on the organization of the contest (please, don't tell me 
about how your beer was misjudged!) would be appreciated.  I'll pass it 
along to the rest of the committee.

Thanks again to all who contributed.

Al Folsom


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:06:00 -0500
From: gwk at world.std.com (Greg Kushmerek)
Subject: A Food Plea


Hi everyone.

Let me preface my comments with the following: I truly appreciate the
hard work and planning that people put into a competition.  I
especially appreciate the attention organizers are increasingly giving
towards feeding judges at these events.  I know that feeding people
costs money and can be a logistics problem (time, quantity of food,
clean-up).

With that said: could organizers please try to keep vegetarians in
mind when they complete their food arrangements?  I'm not saying strip
meat completely out of the menu; I'm noting that some judges and
stewards don't eat meat.  

Sticking in a salad isn't a solution, because not all vegetarians eat
salad (it upsets my stomach), and often salads have large volumes of
dressing that are acidic and fattening.  This doesn't even touch on
the fact that salads aren't very filling either.

Rice and bean dishes work well; pasta dishes are good (pesto sauce,
tomato sauce, or vegetables balance it off).  One thing that isn't
good at all, though (and this happened at a company event, not a judge
event) is taking the vegetables cooked with meat (like the same pot or
skillet) and putting them out separately as the 'vegetarian' dish.
The vegetables absorb the animal fat.

Those of us who don't eat meat regularly and then have some often get cramps or
have very upset stomachs later on, so this isn't a frivolous request.
Some benefits of having a vegetarian dish are:

	- Cheaper (generally) than a meat dish
	- Won't host bacteria as quickly as meat dishes (a problem
	  when judges are late finishing a flight).

Thanks for listening,

- --gk

- -- 
Greg Kushmerek
gwk at world.std.com

(alter-ego in trunk)
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 11:04:05 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Alts and test questions

Ed writes:
>There are two reasons why I believe that the description of the Alt is more
>difficult than the description of the APA.  First, knowledge of a Alt is
>less common and more difficult to find.  The only detailed descriptions
>I've seen are from Jackson, Deschner, and the style guidelines.  Every beer
>magazine in the U.S. has run some article about the explosion of micros in
>the U.S., and hence descriptions of the post popular style associated with
>those micros--APAs.  Futhermore, I've never tasted an authentic commercial
>example of an Alt.  To my knowledge, there are none available in the U.S..
<snip>

I know that this deviates from the thread, but I think that it is important
to keep talking about Duesseldorfer Alts because they are so misunderstood.

There are a few "Alts" available in the US.  Widmer makes one, but as far
as I know they do not currently bottle it.  I know that Widmer is planning
to brew and bottle another one of their beers in the midwest.  I certainly
have my fingers crossed that the next beer they bottle will be their Alt.
There are a number of beers calling themselves Alts, but only the Widmer
is in the Duesseldorfer styls.

Actually, Brewing Techniques had an article on Alts and made the same mistake
that the AHA did about lumping beers that *call* themselves Alts into the
category. The BT article was full of errors, not the least of which was
the misspelling of "Zum Uerige."

>Second, the information that is available about Alts is not in agreement.
>Deschner says that the Alts he's had made him sweat hops.  The AHA, until
>this year, billed Alt as a malty brew.  (Now they say that there are some
>rare examples that are highly hopped.)  The lack of available knowledge and
>the general lack of agreement between experts on the Alt style make
>answering questions like this more difficult for the examinee than would be
>answering questions about APAs--a style that nearly every homebrewer has
>tasted and brewed.

The difficulty really is in that there are three (maybe four) distinct types
of beers labeled "Alt."  The one that Roger Deschner and Michael Jackson
both talk about the most are the Duesseldorfer Alts.  Another is a one-of-a-
kind beer called "Pinkus Muller Muenster Alt."  I had one yesterday so it is
clear in my mind.  It is a pale, cloudy, very wheaty-flavoured ale with a
slight sourness from an intentional lactic fermentation (it is made with,
if I'm not mistaken, 50% wheat).  The third type is what Deschner calls
"Dortmunder Alt" and that makes a lot of sense given that there are quite
a few of them brewed there.  It is actually a brown lager and has no more
than half of the bitterness of a Duesseldorfer Alt.  MOST Alts in Germany
are in the Dortmunder Alt style, which is why the guidelines are skewed
in that direction.

Deschner is clear to differentiate between the Duesseldorfer and Dortmunder
Alts, but Jackson blurs the lines between them (at least in Beer Companion,
I don't recall him even mentioning the Dortmunder versions in New World
Guide to Beer).  A typical Dortmunder Alt would be DAB Dark.

The AHA guidelines say "Duesseldorf Altbier" but have obviously been created
with the Dortmunder Alt beers lumped in.  I argued this point with James
Spence last year and he sent me a file of Altbiers and their IBUs.  This
file (Alt data from Anton Piendl's analyses) included:

>Pinkus Munstersch Alt, 17.5
>Weihenstephan Alt, 27.
>Dortmunder Actien Alt, 32.0

clearly NOT Duesseldorfer Alts.  (Incidentally, the DAB Dark that is imported
into the US is lucky to have 20 IBUs.) The latest AHA guidelines are even
further from the mark saying that most Duesseldorfer Alts are in the 25 - 35
IBU range and that only a few odd beers are higher.  This would be like saying
that most Pilsners are 10 -20 IBUs and that a few odd beers (like Pilsner
Urquell) have 40 IBUs!

I argued this point again with James Spence this year, but I guess I put too
many exclamation points in my email and it was never answered.

Deschner and Jackson clearly state that the very *best* example of a
Duesselforfer Altbier is Zum Uerige which was listed in Anton Piendl's
analysis as:

>Uerige Alt,  48.0

Both Roger Deschner and I *independently* asked the brewmaster about this
bitterness level and the brewmaster said: "That was an odd batch... our
level of bitterness is usually around 55 IBUs."

Furthermore, the number of brown lagers called Alts explains why the AHA
guidelines say that Alts are not very fruity.  Jackson says that the
Duesseldorfer Altbiers are generally dry.  I must respectfully disagree.
Last summer I made it a point to critically judge the most highly acclaimed
Alts when I was in Duesseldorf.  I tasted Zum Uerige, Im Fuchschen (sp?) and
Zum Schussel.  All of these beers were extremely malty, extremely bitter,
*fruity*, slightly *sweet* and had a little bit of hop aroma and flavour.  I
think that the hop flavour and aroma are spill-overs from the high bittering
hop rate.  My own homebrewed version got comments like "hop nose and flavor
not appropriate -- don't use flavor or aroma hops" from judges, despite
the fact that I had but one addition of hops (~55IBUs) at T-60min.

I also tasted the lesser Schlosser, Hannen and Diebels Alts, which *are*
from Duesseldorf (I'm sure the first two are), but are clearly a step down
in quality.  In Anton Piendl's analysis:

>Schlosser Alt, 32.0
>Hannen Alt, 28.0
>Diebels Alt, 31.5

In summary: there are at least three different types of alts (four if your
count the American alts like Schmaltz Alt) and the title "Duesseldorfer Alt"
should be reserved for beers that are characterized by the *best* examples
of the style as defined by Jackson and Deschner.

Al.

Al Korzonas
BJCP Master Judge
Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 1996 10:52:55 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: JudgeNet Digest #1200 (J

        Reply to:   RE>JudgeNet Digest #1200 (Jan 19, 1996)

Greg Holton asks:
>Please explain the purpose of a "promotion review".  The rules about test
>scores and experience points are straightforward enough that any PC >could do
the calculation in a small fraction of a second.

The Exam Director (formerly the Co-Directors) must approve all promotions. It
is not as simple as 80+ grade with 20+ points = a National rank. One variable
that must be checked is points have to be 50% JUDGING, not just ORGANIZER or
STEWARDING. No doubt the system could be streamlined in the future but at
present we are still living under the old by-laws.

Russ Wigglesworth
Program Administrator


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:40:23 +0000
From: "Bill Giffin" <billg at giffin.iii.net>
Subject: Poor job

Top of the morning to ye all,

It appears that I didn't make myself understood in the last post.  I 
tried to get some comment on the beers that were entered in the 
Nationals that were far too large for style.  Let me let you know 
exactly how I feel about those of you who enter beers that fall 
outside the guide-lines.

Anyone who knowingly enters a beer that is larger then the guide-lines 
is the same person who would steal pennies off a dead man's eyes.  If 
you enter a beer that exceeds the original gravity on the style  I 
believe you are incompetent and a cheat, a slime, a low life,  
considered to be lower then whale manure.  I hope that clears up how 
I feel about those of you who have entered the AHA Nationals with 
beers that were far larger then the guide-lines provided for and won. 
Basically you who entered beer larger then life are same as what goes 
down  the hole in the out house.

And for you judges who gave these beer first, second or third place 
in the Nationals you are no better then the brewers who entered the 
beers in the first place.  I can understand how you can miss a beer 
that is only slightly bigger then style but I can't understand how in 
the world you can give a beer that is twice the original gravity of 
the top end of the original gravity guide-lines for the style a place 
in the top three or even the best of show!!  Many National and        
Master judges judged these beers at the Nationals and I 
feel that perhaps they should be demoted to apprentice for 
incompetence.  I truly believe that a judge should be able to tell 
that a beer of an original gravity of say 1.080 is too large for a 
style were the high end of the range is 1.040.  I also believe that a 
beer whose guide line state that the high end of the bittering is 20 
ibu's, and the winning beer has 40 ibu's the judge should know that 
it is too big.  A judge should be able to differentiate between the 
two.   If you can't then again I you should be demoted to apprentice.

Again I appeal to those of you who are organizers of competitions to 
have style definitions which are part of the rules for the 
competition rather then style guide-lines which give the impression 
that we really don't care what you put into a category.  

May you be in Heaven an hour before the devil knows your dead

Bill                         Bill Giffin
                             61 Pleasant St
                             Richmond, ME  04357
                             207-737-2015

All you need is a few good friends and plenty to drink because thirst is a terrible thing

------------------------------


End of JudgeNet Digest
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