From synchro!judge-owner at uu6.psi.com Tue May 9 03:39:41 1995 Status: O X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["13726" "" " 9" "May" "1995" "02:19:00" "EDT" "JudgeNet Administrator" "judge-owner at synchro.com" nil "304" "JudgeNet Digest #1038 (May 09, 1995)" "^Date:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.12/2.2) with X.500 id DAA21922; Tue, 9 May 1995 03:39:38 -0400 Received: from goodman.itn.med.umich.edu by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.12/2.2) with SMTP id DAA21916; Tue, 9 May 1995 03:39:37 -0400 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA23514 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at umich.edu); Tue, 9 May 95 03:39:31 -0400 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA05786 for ; Tue, 9 May 95 03:30:48 -0400 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA24473; 9 May 95 02:19:00 EDT (Tue) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9505090219.AA24473 at synchro.com> Date: 9 May 95 02:19:00 EDT (Tue) From: judge-owner at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #1038 (May 09, 1995) JudgeNet Digest #1038 Tue 09 May 1995 JudgeNet The Beer Judge Digest digest submissions: judge at synchro.com administrative requests: judge-request at synchro.com send cancellations & rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu in /pub/judge WWW Archives: http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/Judge Gopher Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu Editor: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publishers: SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Anti-Prohibitionists may also be interested in LiBeerty: The Libertarian Beer Digest Subscription info: libeerty-request at synchro.com Contents: call for judges! (uswlsrap) Apoligy and DMS (Bill Giffin) Re: Half litre beer bottles ("C. John Mare") Out of the loop (Carlo Fusco) Re: chuck's power trip (Jay Hersh) Judging Quality Control (Garofalo) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 09:04:47 EDT From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com Subject: call for judges! Yes, now that the entry deadline has arrived, this becomes a post of only regional interest, but can you think of a better way to reach lots of brewers and judges than JudgeNet and HBD? (that's a rhetorical question?) THE NINTH ANNUAL BIG AND HUGE IS COMING, and many judges will make "light" work of all those big-hearted beers of 1.050 OG and higher. It's this Saturday (13th) at 10am in Madison, the Beer Capital of the Midwest, at Angelic Brewing Company, Madison's newest brewpub. If you've previously expressed an interest or requested information, it's now time to confirm your intent to judge. And if you haven't said anything yet, but are now interested, let's talk.... Madison is an easy drive from Chicago, Northern and Central Illinois, Eastern Iowa, Southern Minnesota. And even from Western Michigan or Indiana or Saint-Louis and other places of comparable distance it's not such a bad drive. The fine folks of the Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild will see to it that you get a quality judging experience and have a good time :-) If you've been waiting for an excuse to check out all those great beers here, isn't this just the excuse you've needed? Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace / uswlsrap at ibmmail.com "People who drink light "beer" don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot" --quote stolen from Capital Brewery, Middleton (Madison), WI ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 09:58:32 -0500 From: billg at giffin.iii.net (Bill Giffin) Subject: Apoligy and DMS Top of the morning to ye all, I apoligize to you all and particularly to Al and Lee. There was absolutly no reason to go after them . I should have taken the time to explain the point I had tried to make instead I was a grumpy old man using the bandwidth as a flame thrower. Seeing the problem started about DMS now is the time to inform you about DMS. The aroma threshold in water is 30 ppb. The flavor threshold in beer is stated in one place as 33ppb and in another as 50 ppb. I have to assume that other flavor and aromatic components could mask the flavor and/or aroma of DMS . DMS CONTENT OF BEERS (PPB) British ales 14 British lagers 16-27 Continental lagers 44-114 Beer from green malt 80 German lagers 32-205 (av. 94) Diet beers 46-98 Canadian ale 92 Canadian lager 114 Canadian low alcohol 82 British 41-75 German 141-153 United States 59-106 The beer in question, that Lee was so good to give us the description for from the AHA, was a cream ale. A cream ale is a US beer therefore from the chart above it would have had between 59 and 106 ppb of DMS well above the threshold for both flavor and aroma. Lee writes about the AHA description > >Notice nothing about a vegetal odor being appropriate. DMS at the appropriate level doesn't taste vegetal it gives the sweet grainy flavor that we enjoy in our German beers as well as in cream ales. In a cream ale what many thing is the flavor from the corn used in brewing the beer is not the flavor of corn but DMS. German beers have levels of DMS which are well above the threshold levels by about 3 times AHA doesn't mention that in the guidelines either. By the by Lee the judge who judged the cream ale did know what he was talking about he gave the beer I used as an example of what I though was ambiguous first place in that competition and the same recipe has won at least two other times. Let me lay out a situation for you and afterwards I ask what you as a good judge woudl do. You are the senior judge judging a flight of Munich dunkels. You have judged nine of a flight of ten and one beer scores a 26, another beer scores a 28, and another a 33 with basically a small fault for astringeny the rest of the flight were in the low 20's and below. You are now judging the last beer of the flight and it is wonderful; one of the best beer you have ever had let alone as homebrew when the junior partner of the judging team says this is not a dunkel but a bock and indeed it was. As a good judge which beer is the first place beer which the second and the third in this flight? May the wind be always at you back, Bill Bill Giffin 61 Pleasant St. Richmond, ME 04357 (207)-737-2015 All you need is a few good friends and plenty to drink because thirst is a terrible thing! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 11:17:55 -0700 (MST) From: "C. John Mare" Subject: Re: Half litre beer bottles As we move into this period of re-organization of the BJCC I would like to propose that we expand the definition of acceptable "competition "bottles to include the standard brown European half litre (16.9oz) bottle. These bottles have many virtues. They are very easily obtainable (most German and some Czech lagers come in them), they are very sturdy and re-usable, they have no distinctive markings on them, and the extra few ounces of beer provides a little extra for the stewards. I know several people who use them as their standard bottles, but who then use the smaller bottles as "competition" bottles. I believe that expanding our guidelines to include these bottles (probably the single most widely used re-usable bottle in the world) would in no way compromise our competitions. Since they fit into a standard six-pack holder they would take up very little extra space. Food for thought!? John Mare, The Stables Brewery, Tucson, AZ. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 16:06:05 -0500 From: Carlo Fusco Subject: Out of the loop Hello Judges, It seems I have been out of the information loop for some time. I have not been reading the Judgenet Digest for the last couple of months and I have moved 3 times in the last year, and it seems I have missed some important information. I have been informed that the BJCP is going to be self sufficient and that a new structure is to be established, and that databases for judges are also being setup. I would like to make the person(s) setting up this database(s) aware that I would like to be included and that I can be reached at: Carlo Fusco, 226 Deerglen Terr., Aurora, Ontario, Canada, L4G 6Y5 or at fusco at io.org Cheers Carlo - -- Carlo Fusco Aurora,Ontario,Canada Certified Beer Judge (BJCP) fusco at io.org <- best bet Canadian Amateur Brewers ab779 at freenet.toronto.on.ca Association Board Member ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 18:37:54 EDT From: Jay Hersh Subject: Re: chuck's power trip I was not suggesting that chuck was on a power trip here. Chuck is volunteering an important servise, as are those assisting him. The problem I feel is a severe lack of patience. As it is said, Rome was not built in a day, but it reached a great and lasting glory. I only wished to point out that even the most well meaning of actions do have ramifications and that those presently engaged in interim management of the database should be aware that any work they do in modifying the present database structure (ie centralized) is a policy decision or at the least must be undone should the new BJCC decide they wish a different approach. In such a case they will then have unwittingly created more work for future database managers. WRT to my volunteerism I graded 12 tests last month, am presently grading another 12 this week and have finished a filemaker pro version of the report to participant form sent to test takers for donation to the future database administrator that will allow this information to become a part of the judge database (should the future administrator feel this is helpful). My apologies if I in any way impuned or offended Chuck. I just wish to urge restraint and forethought that actions taken in a vacuum of decision making are in themselves policy decisions with future possible ramifications. JaH ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 01:07:01 -0400 From: Garofalo at aol.com Subject: Judging Quality Control I feel compelled to throw in my .02 concerning the recent "judging judges" controversy. IMHO, we all should seek feedback (part of that humility thing in the Judges Procedure Manual). Any judge woth his/her salt _needs_ to constantly improve technique and perception. I have had several recent experiences as both a judge and entrant, and both illustrate some pertinent points: 1) A German Pilsener was apparently downgraded for DMS in the aroma. Not to add too much fuel to the fire, but isn't that appropriate? It is in my experience. In any case, it needs to be _clearly_ stated on the judging sheet. The other judge noted "interesting smell" and "problems here". I really don't believe such comments should be tolerated, by entrants or competition directors! In a judging scenatio, I judged Pilseners with an experienced judge who stated that all the beers seemed too bitter, but that she did'nt like bitter beers and was probably overcompensating. How about asking to judge a different style? 2) An ESB, entered in two different competitions, recieved vastly different appraisals. OK, but how about some detailed comments. Again, DMS was noted, but not necessarily as a defect. The same beer was given a much more detailed (and much higher) score in a subsequent competition by a National judge of impeccable credentials. I know, different days, different handling, etc, but a 15 point difference is hard to swallow. I believe that we need a quality control mechanism in our judging; it's the one area where we have a real advantage over any competing sanctioning organization:-). Perhaps some form of feedback from entrants would be easiest to manage. We intend to institute something along these lines in our upcoming competition, and I intend to give my own feedback to the competition directors involved. There is no need to "blackball" judges, but they should be given the opportunity to improve their skills. One area that needs immediate and serious attention is the definition of styles. My suggestion, at least for the short term, is to try to assign styles well ahead of the competition and write up some detailed style descriptions (with commercial examples) so potential judges can prepare. I believe Scott Bickham makes a very good point in this regard. I, for one, believe there are very few "bad" judges. Given a chance, and positive feedback, we _all_ could improve, as well as help others improve. Now I think I'll go have a beer (thanks fot the suggestion, Bob; make mine a DMS-laden Pilsener :-)). Peter Garofalo Eastern Region BJCP ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************