From synchro!judge-owner at uu6.psi.com Tue Apr 11 04:02:07 1995 Status: O X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["17706" "" "11" "April" "1995" "02:17:42" "EST" "JudgeNet Administrator" "judge-owner at synchro.com" nil "387" "JudgeNet Digest #1018 (Apr 11, 1995)" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.12/2.2) with X.500 id DAA18841; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 03:58:39 -0400 Received: from goodman.itn.med.umich.edu by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.12/2.2) with SMTP id DAA18674; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 03:55:57 -0400 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA20627 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at umich.edu); Tue, 11 Apr 95 03:52:09 -0400 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA29623 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 95 03:41:28 -0400 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA03919; 11 Apr 95 02:17:42 EST (Tue) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9504110217.AA03919 at synchro.com> From: judge-owner at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #1018 (Apr 11, 1995) Date: 11 Apr 95 02:17:42 EST (Tue) JudgeNet Digest #1018 Tue 11 Apr 1995 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST digest submissions: judge at synchro.com administrative requests: judge-request at synchro.com send cancellations & rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu in /pub/judge WWW Archives: http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/Judge Gopher Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu Editor: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publishers: SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Boycotting the 1st Round Nationals (BrewsMead) Re: AHA Competition & BJCP (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist)) RE: AHA 1st round judging points (uswlsrap) Why wait for the BJCC? (Chuck Cox) BJCC status report (Chuck Cox) Experience Points ("PATRICK N. BAKER") Exam grades (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 04:54:28 -0700 From: BrewsMead at eworld.com Subject: Boycotting the 1st Round Nationals Now that I have your attention , I am NOT proposing to do this but only to arrange a proper coexistence with the organizers. As judges we are serving on a volunteer basis (and paying for the privelige) by spending cash to attend these events. I am willing to admit to the feeling to boycott (to protest the AHA actions) , but don't want to hurt the brewers who have no clue or care as to the BS we are going thru. Then there are my friends ,the organizers ,who will surely be screwed and tattooed if we don't show up to help out with this task. I am ready to go and will probably protest by not entering the competition (and sending more money for Charlie to travel the world with). I have already dropped my subscription to Zymurgy and the new "membership" benefits they advertise and speak of . What I am suggesting is that the BJCC consider the following proposal . I feel that the Nationals are our way to truly be self sufficient and a method to raise the capitol to get the program going in full force. We should have a stake in the fiduciary responsibility of the brewing community's future and must have an independent and vibrant program to assure that end. We must discuss the financial ramifications to the AHA of not receiving this National income. If we don't go to judge and tell all our brewers and clubs that the thing is not worth entering without an independent program to handle the judging , then no one will enter. With this in mind ,the BJCC should receive an honorarium for providing this service to the AHA . The concept has a mutually satisfying co existence without the need to break off the Nationals and start our own system to generate revenue. With the revenue from this honorarium in hand, the BJCC can maintain databases and provide service to Competition organizers all over for a nominal fee. I'd suggest that Russ and the crew consider this now and move to discussions with the powers at the AHA. If we are going to do the work then we should get a share of the reward. The profits generated would lead me to consider an honorarium of $5000 per year as a reasonable fee for the use of our judges and a coexistence agreement. Let your BJCC rep know how you feel in this regard before the 1st Round. When you have them by the shorts ........a wedgie could soon follow.........or you can let them go with the knowledge that you had em. Respect comes from a strong offense.....R.Raygun Let the discussion begin........ Brews Stevens ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:54:44 -0600 (MDT) From: walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist)) Subject: Re: AHA Competition & BJCP WALZENBREW at aol.com wrote: > > Thanks to Keith Symonds and company for their previous two posts on the AHA > first round. Sometimes it's hard to get this kind of information. > > However, they forgot to answer the $64 question - WILL JUDGES AT THE FIRST > AND SECOND ROUNDS RECEIVE POINTS IN THE BJCP PROGRAM???? > I've asked this question before in previous posts, but it's getting down to > the wire here. Some of us need a DEFINITE answer on this NOW, so we can make > plans to judge the first round and attend the conference (or do something > else instead). > > My situation is probably similar to that of many - I'm not going to spend my > time & effort judging ANY competition that doesn't give me point credit in > the BJCP. While I hate to preach, this attitude just stinks! I like to believe that people judge beer for more than the status points. I know I would still judge if we didn't receive points, and I know many who share my thoughts. Judging for status only goes against the spirit of any judging organization, IMHO. > So how about it James and Karen and the BJCC? If you judge the AHA Nationals > this year will you get credit in the BJCP? No answer on this means no > participation by a lot of us. The BJCC are the people to ask. The AHA has already said they will give credit to judges who judge in any sanctioned competition. I think the BJCC has done the same (and they'd be stupid not to), but I am not sure on the BJCC. I guess the real question is whether or not they want someone judging who is only there for the points? Good Day, - --bjw Brian J Walter Chemistry Graduate Student walter at lamar.colostate.edu RUSH Rocks Best Homebrewer & AHA/HWBTA Beer Judge (Whatever that means ;^> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:27:13 EDT From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com Subject: RE: AHA 1st round judging points /internet /to walzenbrew at aol.com /endinternet Greg Walz trashes (sorry, I couldn't resist :-)) the AHA on its silence on judging points: >...they forgot to answer the $64 question - WILL JUDGES AT THE FIRST AND >SECOND ROUNDS RECEIVE POINTS IN THE BJCP PROGRAM???? >...it's getting down to the wire here. Some of us need a DEFINITE answer on >this NOW, so we can make plans to judge the first round and attend the >conference (or do something else instead). I agree that not many people have been very forthcoming on these kinds of questions. My understanding is that judges will receive points, but, no, I haven't seen it as an absolute, in writing, and all that. Greg is correct that we should have more of an assurance. >My situation is probably similar to that of many - I'm not going to spend my >time & effort judging ANY competition that doesn't give me point credit in the >BJCP. I have to disagree on this one if you mean it literally. It's one thing if you mean it as a matter of principle (that organisations should be more up front with their members and you don't want to support someone who hasn't been honest in its dealings with you), but quite another if you mean that you won't judge in "ANY competition that doesn't give me point credit." Have the points and the rank become a goal in themselves such that you neglect the _substance_ of judging in favour of the measures of "status." We did this for the beer :-) I continue to judge--and judge frequently--to increase my knowledge and appreciation of beer and brewing, to get together with friends I've made in this hobby, and to help many of these same people when they need judges to staff their competitions. Hell, the points don't give me anything anyway. I'll have more than enough points for "National" before Spring is out, but until/unless I retake the exam, I'll be "Recognised" forever, and that's fine with me. The people I judge with/for know what I do well and in what areas I don't have experience. I've never had anyone turn away my offer to judge, and if someone did because of my "lowly status," well, *uck 'em. Certainly, if I'm supposed to get points and have them recorded, then I want that done, but I'm not going to let the availability of points make my decision on whether I judge in a particulat event. When you say that you won't do ANY competition unless you get points, does that mean that you won't judge a small competition for a local homebrew shop or new club just getting started simply because they didn't pay the AHA or BJCP for sanctioning? I suspect not (or, at least I would _hope_ not). >So how about it James and Karen and the BJCC? If you judge the AHA Nationals >this year will you get credit in the BJCP? No answer on this means no >participation by a lot of us. You said you wanted to know one way or the other so you could plan to be there or someplace else depending on the answer. _I'm_ going to be amidst the cornfields and ghastly corporate office parks of Northern Illinois at the end of this month to judge and enjoy the company of other brewers. As for Baltimore, well that entails a little more travel and time for me, but if I had time to visit friends there, I'd go and also judge while there. The conference? I wouldn't be likely to do that in any event with the obscene fees they charge. I don't have any indication that the conference is anything other than a for-profit event. My dissatisfaction with the AHA on their more "business-oriented" activities at the expense of their own members (and that also includes $9 entry fees, btw) does _NOT_ mean that I won't support them by judging at the nationals. If the idea of doing _anything_ to "support" the AHA offends you, think of the homebrewers who spent their $9/entry plus shipping hassles to enter the competition. Would you prefer that the regional judge directors (many of whom had nothing to do with the AHA decision) pull out their hair in search of _any_ warm bodies, most of whom may be less experienced, and the entrants not get the benefit of experienced judging? There is no question in my mind, whatever you think of the decision itself, that the AHA bungled the way they handled this whole thing. It was done without any consultation with its own members/subscribers. And never mind consultation, we weren't even _told_ about it until long after the fact. (It happened in January yet it was kept even from its own members for close to two months. 'Net folk might have heard about it in late-February, but most people didn't get any notification until the mailing much later.) Call me an idiot, but I'll still wait and listen to what they have to say. Sure, I'm a bit sceptical. It isn't apparent to me that all the wonderful (and not so wonderful) things they promised in the letter/survey could not have been done under the existing format. But I'll see what the different sides have to say before I start boycotting competitions based on the sanctioning body. Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace / uswlsrap at ibmmail.com - ---THE INTERNET: Hardwiring the neurons of the global brain:--- One geek at a time.... - --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 12:36:37 EST From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox) Subject: Why wait for the BJCC? As many of you are aware, the new & improved BJCC is moving rather slowly. We could wait for them to establish a regional administration heirarchy, but it will probably be a while before they get started, and even longer before it is set up. Fortunately, a couple of regions have already started to organize without waiting for the BJCC. I would like to encourage all of the regions to start organizing now. You do not need to wait for the BJCC's blessing, you can immediately set up your own process for electing/appointing your officers. In particular, you should probably have at least a communications coordinator and a database administrator. I will start organizing a distributed email & database system for the regions. Please be aware that this activity is not authorized by the BJCC, however it is my expectation that they will accept whatever we come up with whenever they get around to it. Those regions that are already organized can select their own officers and be immediately integrated into the system. All I need to know is the names and email addresses of your officers, especially those responsible for communications and database administration. For the unorganized regions, I will select interim communications and database administrators to fill in until they get organized enough to select their own administrators. The first step is for anyone interested in being a regional communications coordinator or database administrator to contact me and let me know what region you are in. In order to be a communications coordinator, you must have reliable fax and Internet email connections. In order to be a database administrator, you must have a reliable Internet email connection, a reliable computer with a couple of MB of free disk, and a database package that can import and export FileMaker Pro and/or delimited ASCII records. I kept the names of all those who have already volunteered to help with the database administration, but you should probably contact me again, just to be sure. I am also still interested in recruiting volunteers who are experienced writing database applications to help develop some simple scripts for automating common tasks. Once we have a team of regional database administrators and programmers, we can start putting together an email-based system for automating database updates and queries. I will also start adding more aliases and distribution lists to the bjcp subdomain to support the regional communications coordinators. The BJCC has not publicly announced the new BJCP regions, but here is what I understand they will be: Northeast: E. Canada (Ontario and east), ME, VT, NH, MA, RI, CT, NY Mid-Atlantic: NJ, DE, MD, VA, WV, OH, PA, Washington DC Gulf Coast: FL, TX, LA, AR, OK, MS Southeast: AL, GA, KY, NC, SC, TN Midwest: IL, IN, IA, KS, MO, MN, MI, NE, ND, SD, WI Mountain/Northwest: W. Canada (Manitoba and west), MT, WY, CO, NM, AZ, UT, ID, OR, WA, AK West: CA, NV, HI - -- Chuck Cox SynchroSystems / Riverside Garage & Brewery - Cambridge, Mass. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 13:08:33 EST From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox) Subject: BJCC status report Despite numerous public and private requests by various judges, the BJCC has yet to make a public status report on their recent activities. Since I have a little more access to the BJCC than most members, I thought I would provide an unauthorized report. Please note that I am not privy to every BJCC communication, nor did I record any voting details at the time, so I am going on memory here. I hope that the BJCC will set the record straight if there are any errors. In the month since the three new independent representatives were appointed, the BJCC has voted on, and passed three items: 1) Regionalize the BJCP (I don't have an official list of regions, but see my previous message for an unofficial list) for: John, Scott, Gregg, Steve against: Rob, Russ, Norman 2) Interim by-laws (I don't have a copy of the new bylaws, but I think most of the changes were to facilitate the independence of the BJCP) for: 5 against: 2 2) Send a letter to the membership (I believe the letter is being processed now, but I don't have a copy) for: Norman, Rob, Scott, Russ against: Steve, John, Gregg Contact your BJCC representative if you want a copy of any of the above items. - -- Chuck Cox SynchroSystems / Riverside Garage & Brewery - Cambridge, Mass. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 95 12:23:13 EDT From: "PATRICK N. BAKER" <74443.3040 at compuserve.com> Subject: Experience Points Greg: Responding to your concern, and others, the BJCP's current stated policy is that judges will get credit for judging at legitimate competitions. Legitimate at this point means both AHA sanctioned and HWMTA recognized competitions. Since all HWBTA judge reports pass through me, I send copies to both Chuck Cox, for BJCP recording, and to James Spence. James Spence is still recording AHA points on the BJCP database. After April 19, we will ask the AHA to send to the BJCP judge reports from AHA competitions. If the AHA is not responsive, we will ask the organizers of AHA competitions to send us copies of their reports. Regarding experience point recording costs, the HWBTA continues to pay the BJCP $1 for each experience point entry. At least until the new BJCP Board of Directors gets elected in July, we will record points from AHA competitions without charge, but ultimately this cost will have to be covered. JUDGES SHOULD NOT WORRY ABOUT GETTING CREDIT FOR JUDGING IN LEGITIMATE COMPETITIONS. WHEN THERE IS A CHANGE IN EXPERIENCE POINT RECORDING PRACTICE, IT WILL BE PUBLICIZED. Pat Baker, BJCP Co-Director ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:03:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman Subject: Exam grades Well, this shows my lack of patience, but can anyone tell me when I'm likely to receive my grade from the BJCP test I took on 1/7? I can only imagine that the shakeup has diverted people's attention to more pressing matters but I just thought I'd ask. Of course I don't even know what the score will mean when I get it. Jeremy Bergsman jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************