From synchro!judge-owner at uu6.psi.com Wed Mar 29 03:38:56 1995 Status: O X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11466" "" "29" "March" "1995" "02:17:34" "EST" "JudgeNet Administrator" "judge-owner at synchro.com" nil "281" "JudgeNet Digest #1009 (Mar 29, 1995)" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.10/2.2) with X.500 id DAA26756; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 03:38:54 -0500 Received: from goodman.itn.med.umich.edu by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.10/2.2) with SMTP id DAA26751; Wed, 29 Mar 1995 03:38:52 -0500 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA17945 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at umich.edu); Wed, 29 Mar 95 03:38:49 -0500 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA05876 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 95 03:28:30 -0500 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA09366; 29 Mar 95 02:17:34 EST (Wed) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9503290217.AA09366 at synchro.com> From: judge-owner at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #1009 (Mar 29, 1995) Date: 29 Mar 95 02:17:34 EST (Wed) JudgeNet Digest #1009 Wed 29 Mar 1995 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST digest submissions: judge at synchro.com administrative requests: judge-request at synchro.com send cancellations & rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu in /pub/judge WWW Archives: http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/Judge Gopher Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu Editor: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publishers: SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Auction for stuff in Cuba, NY 3/29 at 10am (BrewsMead) Competition Format (Tom Leith) WHEN TO PULL THE PLUG? ("PATRICK N. BAKER") Rauchbier Round-up (bickham) Call your local judges! ("Kieran O'Connor") 1st Round - Chicago - Update (Dennis Davison) BJCP Update Request (Michael Ligas) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 04:41:49 PST From: BrewsMead at eworld.com Subject: Auction for stuff in Cuba, NY 3/29 at 10am I am really pissed off that I have to work on Weds. and can't get up to this site to score major and copious amounts of s/s tankage and other goodies but wanted to spread the word and maybe someone else can. Speaking of cans , there are 20 s/s milk cans there to be had for the right bid? These are usually 10 gallon size and may or may not have lids. There's an autoclave, some filling lines ,a 3 tank CIP system (200 gallon tanks in s/s) , Triclover pumps and many other goodies for the discerning buyer. There are big tanks for the microbrewer wannabes in this crowd too so pass this on to your friends in that biz if appropriate. The deals at these events are simple cash or check with bank approved guarantee letter of credit. The phone number is (716) 968-1590 at the site and ask for Gary Conroy for further details. The auction is at the site of Meadow Brook Dairy Foods in Cuba at 2 Water St. This is 20 miles from Olean and 110 miles from Erie just off of Rte 17 . Sorry I can't give you the whole package but if someone wants to call me for the scoop before going , I'm at 207 395-4554. Good bidding, Brews Stevens ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 08:51:30 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Leith Subject: Competition Format BrewerCam Writes: > This continued discussion around whether a competition has an entry > that is "worthy" of a ribbon is getting out of hand. The notion that a polite discussion can be somehow "out of hand" is, unfortunately, gaining currency in many quarters and has now come to JudgeNet. > It is rediculous to think that any competition would consider not > awarding any place Whether it is ridiculous depends on the purpose or point of the competition. The recent changes to the program present a perfect opportunity to have more discussions along these lines. > While brewers are brewing towards the perfect model that resembles a given > style, they are actually competing against other brewers doing the same > at a given competition. One of these entries is the best of the bunch. > This should be the first place for this competition. Using the best > beer ever brewed by anybody as the benchmark or standard for each > competition eliminates the need for so many events. > Use Olympic swimmer Pablo Morales as an analogy. He swam a 200 meter > butterfly. He was attempting to, as all swimmers do everytime they > brew, er, race, set a new world record. He took first place. He didn't > break the world record, but he beat all the other swimmers. He was > justly awarded the gold medal. Hmmm. Let's try another analogy. Suppose a teacher gives a test. All the students are striving to produce the perfect set of answers, but there is also an element of competition among the students. One of these answer sets is the best of the lot -- the student scores 25% of the total possible. Should this student receive an "A" or an "F"? Well, this depends on how the test was designed. Some teachers design tests such that that nobody is expected to score 100 -- the teacher wants to test something besides the material covered in the course. This is pretty common at universities, and is somewhat analogous to Olympic competition. And I know there are many BJCP judges that approach beer competitions this way. Other teachers design a test such that someone (the best, the brightest, the hardest-working, someone who has absorbed the material outlined on the course syllabus) will score very high -- approaching 100. >From my point-of-view, the style guidelines, taken together with *certain* commercial examples, constitute a "syllabus". If you prove your mastery by brewing beer that nails the guidelines and closely resembles commercial beers widely recognized as outstanding examples of the style, you should get a very high score (more on this in another post). As you can tell, I approach beer judging leaning more towards the second testing format than the first. Because of my approach, I'm firmly in the camp of having minimum criteria for awards. The 25 point minimum "passing" score seems too generous to me, (after all, a score of 25 is basically a "D" according to the AHA score interpretation, and I'm not happy about awarding a prize to a "D" student) but I'll go along. Given the minimum, I argue for a minimum of 30 for second-place and 40 for first place. This said, I agree that there is too much variance in scores. But I don't think its SO bad that the scheme is unworkable, especially if you tell the judges up-front what you want done. In a posting to come, I will speak to this issue. And so, once again I'll stand on my soapbox and ask: " What is the point of a beer/brewing competition? " Until there is a broad consensus on this, each competition will have its own point, and nothing will improve. Hopefully the ongoing shakeup in the Judging Program will move this debate along. Nowhere near enough has been said. t ============================================================================= Tom Leith InterNet: trl at wuerl.WUstl.EDU 4434 Dewey Ave. CompuServe: 70441,3536 St. Louis, Missouri 63116 "Tho' I could not caution all 314/362-6965 - Office I still might warn a few: 314/362-6971 - Office Fax Don't lend your hand 314/481-2512 - Home + Infernal Machine to raise no flag atop no Ship of Fools" ============================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 95 10:11:12 EST From: "PATRICK N. BAKER" <74443.3040 at compuserve.com> Subject: WHEN TO PULL THE PLUG? Chuck's plan, including his criteria and timing,sound good. I support it.. I have worked over the last ten years with well over one hundred people around the country who have given the program the credibility and success it has today. I have complete confidence that they are willing and able to step forward to create and operate a representative BJCC, IF there is leadership. I look forward to retirement as Co-Director, and will volunteer to serve on a task force to either reorganize the BJCP along regional lines, or create a new judging program. Pat Baker ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 12:23:31 -0500 (EST) From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu Subject: Rauchbier Round-up This is a message to the brewers on the HBD and those who read the Judge Digest. I have received some queries regarding the Rauchbier Round-up, an AHA Club-Only competition that is scheduled for the end of May. This competition will definitely take place, regardless of the status of the Beer Judge Certification Program on the date. All entries will be judged by people who are at least certified or have scored above 70% on the BJCP exam. There's still time to brew your favorite smoked porter or peted scotch ale, so get busy! Cheers, Scott Bickham Ithaca Brewers Union (pronounced eee-boo) - -- ======================================================================== Scott Bickham bickham at msc.cornell.edu ========================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 11:15:09 -0500 (EST) From: "Kieran O'Connor" Subject: Call your local judges! I agree with comments form yesterday's digest: a lot of judges are clueless about the BJCP and its current status. They are especially clueless about the AHA's "new" program. The easiest way to remedy that is to call all the local judges--get the word out. Take a look at your recent competition judge registration--and call those folks. Kieran ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kieran O'Connor E-Mail Address: koconnor at mailbox.syr.edu Syracuse, N.Y. USA In vino veritas; in cervesio felicitas. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 16:46:33 -0600 From: ddavison at earth.execpc.com (Dennis Davison) Subject: 1st Round - Chicago - Update To: Those planning on attending the 1st round judging in Chicago The Brewoff Dinner has been reduced in price to $35.00. If your check is in the mail you will get a refund. Also, I have secured a block of rooms at The Red Roof Inn for $47.99 + tax per night for double occupancy (2 beds also). You must call 1-800-843-7663 and make the reservation yourself, mention the AHA and this confirmation # B199000021 to get these rates. You must make the reservation by April 18th. - -- Dennis Davison ddavison at earth.execpc.com Milwaukee, WI Judge Director of the 1st Round of The AHA Nationals - Chicago,IL 1995 Organizer - Real Ale Fest - Chicago - October 13,14 1995 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 17:54:40 +0001 (EST) From: Michael Ligas Subject: BJCP Update Request Well, after being unsubscribed for a while due to an internet address change, I'm finally back on the JudgeNet list. I have a related request. Could someone, presumably in a lofty position, bring me up-to-date concerning what developments have occured wrt keeping the BJCP alive and moving towards independence. I will be writing an article concerning the subject for the readers of the Canadian Amateur Brewers Association newsletter, and since I have received the AHA mailing, I am able to cover their progress only. I would like to inform our membership of developments on both sides (AHA and BJCP). Any information would be appreciated since we are moving to the presses fairly soon. Many thanks and take care. Michael Ligas Director, Canadian Amateur Brewers Association Chairman, Judge & Competitions Committee Chairman, Technical & Advisory Committee Member, Publications Committee g8006142 at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************