From synchro!judge-owner at uu6.psi.com Thu Mar 9 09:40:21 1995 Status: O X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["12048" "" " 9" "March" "1995" "07:19:57" "EST" "JudgeNet Administrator" "judge-owner at synchro.com" nil "337" "JudgeNet Digest #992 (Mar 09, 1995)" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: by truelies.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with X.500 id JAA06695; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 09:40:19 -0500 Received: from goodman.itn.med.umich.edu by truelies.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with SMTP id JAA06690; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 09:40:18 -0500 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA23201 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at umich.edu); Thu, 9 Mar 95 09:40:15 -0500 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA13302 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 95 09:02:25 -0500 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA00483; 9 Mar 95 07:19:57 EST (Thu) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9503090719.AA00483 at synchro.com> From: judge-owner at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #992 (Mar 09, 1995) Date: 9 Mar 95 07:19:57 EST (Thu) JudgeNet Digest #992 Thu 09 Mar 1995 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST digest submissions: judge at synchro.com administrative requests: judge-request at synchro.com send cancellations & rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu in /pub/judge WWW Archives: http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/Judge Gopher Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu Editor: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publishers: SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Strife and Unity (BrewsMead) Democracy vs. Anarchy Redux (TAyres) Re: Reason for Judging (Spencer.W.Thomas) RE: Address updates--simpler question (uswlsrap) BJCC Appointments ("Rad Equipment") BJCC Appointments Time:8:17 AM Date:3/8/95 Does AHA listen? (Louis K. Bonham) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 08 Mar 95 05:45:53 PST From: BrewsMead at eworld.com Subject: Strife and Unity Whilst Greg's paraphrase was basically on the money ,I just wanted to reiterate some thoughts about the situation. Greg is correct in that the 2 programs will confuse everyone for awhile , especially the ones that are sheep. (Getting up the Fireshield) The counterproductivity was existing before the AHA left (no defense of their stylish exit) , according to Russ's posts as well as the one's from Pat , John , etc. , read between the lines here people . Therefore the old system needs to be replaced! If you can judge ,then you can deduce and therefore you can choose. So pick a system you think is sensible and work on it . Get your chosen system out there in front of your judge peers and let them decide which one they want. I hear that Pat and Betty Ann were politicking up a storm at the most recent Boston Homebrew Competition. So were Bill Giffin and some other members of the Guild , but less noisily. Now I hear, that the American Homebrewer's Alliance is forming too ( is that you Jay?). So if you want to get this down to one system , convince us that a) yours is the best and b)why I should't belong to more than one. Let's face it , we can't always agree on things, that happens to be why there are borders and state lines. If you don't like the manner in which we choose to live ,work , tax and play here in Maine (or the USA in the bigger picture), then move the hell out and go someplace where they agree with you. That's a fact of life and don't shoot me as the bearer of bad news. Grow up and make some decisions on your own or continue to act like sheep and follow . Why has no one seconded my nomination of Tom Ayres or suggested another alternate? Why is Greg the only one to make a suggestion from the Midwest? Are there no more individuals out there and only ewes? Stand up and be counted or follow? Maybe Chuck can co-ordinate the nomination and seconding process for the next week. At that point ,the ballot could be published and votes tabulated during the following week. I trust the puppet , hell I even slept in the same camper once? Those were the good ole days when we did this for the love of beer. Mercenary judges traveling the highways for the sake of our sport. Russ , can you agree to this for the board to allow for the election (not appointment) of the 3 new representatives. Hell we can even use the interested parties list you posted weeks ago as the basis for this voting (separated by region for us)? Can we get involved now or do we become subject to more appointments "in the interim" ? For the sake of face , please let me know if I'm the only jerk who wants to vote and if so , let me go away gracefully. I want to vote on these new BJCC members..... does anyone else??? Bruce P. Stevens - out of the closet Jeffersonian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:26:52 -0500 From: TAyres at aol.com Subject: Democracy vs. Anarchy Redux I always enjoy reading the tirades of my friend, Brews Stevens. While I don't often agree with Brews, his screeds are always humorous and challenging, if somewhat impenetrable and unfathomable at times. As I've told Brews, I can't decide if he's the "Rush Limbaugh of Homebrew" -- or the Hunter Thompson. Either one fits, it seems to me. I often tell people that two of the politicians I most admire are Barry Goldwater and George McGovern. This is in keeping with my feeling that the the straight shooter/no B.S.ers on the fringes help challenge and define the middle. We have NOTHING to gain from anarchy and chaos EXCEPT creative food for thought for those of us who are struggling to define a reasonable way out of the current BJCP/AHA quagmire. I still believe firmly that my suggestion for a nationwide vote to choose a sanctioning body (independent BJCP or the AHA) has merit. I must say, unfortunately, that I share the doubts that have been voiced by many as to whether Karen and James and Company at the AHA would accept and abide by the results of such a process. How about it, AHAers -- what's your opinion of this idea? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 95 15:54:56 EST From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu Subject: Re: Reason for Judging John DeCarlo wrote about Re: Reason for Judging: > a) Hold a "feedback judging" instead of a "competition". Good idea. We have done this at a club meeting, and plan to do it again. I'd propose that the judges *not* have the process information until AFTER they've done their initial sensory evaluation. This should help avoid the "anticipation" problem (e.g., "I don't like extract beers, therefore..."), while still permitting proper process feedback. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 17:50:03 EST From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com Subject: RE: Address updates--simpler question *** Resending note of 03/08/95 15:58 Regarding my question about current club addresses, let me clarify. No, you don't have to go hunt up a ZYMURGY. If you are getting a newsletter and competition announcements from the Madison Homebrewers, we obviously have some sort of address from you. If it's getting to the person you want to have receive it, then we have the right address. If it requires P.O. forwarding to get to you, send us the current address and keep us up-to-date on changes. If you're not getting one and you used to (or you'd like to receive information from us), send us a current club address. No, we're not compiling an independent list in preparation for a coup d'etat against the AHA :-); the AHA reference was simply our original source, and we get enough returned mail that we want to have current and accurate addresses. Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace / uswlsrap at ibmmail.com "If I could see...if I could See all the symbols, unlock what they mean, Maybe I could, maybe I could, maybe I Could meet the artists, and get to know them personally."-Those crazy WPG boys ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 1995 08:36:46 U From: "Rad Equipment" Subject: BJCC Appointments Subject: BJCC Appointments Time:8:17 AM Date:3/8/95 The first 3 at-large delegates have been appointed to the BJCC. They are: Scott Birdwell Norman Dickenson Steve Stroud These appointees were chosen from a pool of 18 nominees who offered to serve if appointed. They are the first truly independent members of the BJCC as they do not owe their seats to either of the sponsors. While they were not "elected" by the BJCP participants, they were selected based on a nonpartisan nomination process within the BJCC. I believe they are as close to elected officials as we can get given the time and financial restraints of the moment. Their appointment marks the first step toward an independent and fully democratic BJCP. Also, Tom Ayres has been appointed to fill the Associate Director's position which was vacated by Steve Stroud. We are now working on writing interim by-laws and getting a mailing out to the entire pool of BJCP judges to determine their support for the BJCP's continuance. Here is the full list of the BJCC membership at present: Voting Members: Russ Wigglesworth - Chair - AHA appointee 1700 Clairmont Court Petaluma, CA 94954 707-769-0425 - home 415-476-3668 - work 415-476-4690 - fax Rad_Equipment at Radmac1.ucsf.edu - e-mail Rob Bates - HWBTA appointee The Reno Homebrewer 1086-B South Virginia Street Reno, NV 89502 800-433-4971 - work 702-747-7339 - fax Scott Birdwell - at-large delegate Defalco's Home Wine & Beer Supplies 5611 Morningside Drive, Dept Z Houston, TX 77005 713-523-8154 - work 713-523-5284 - fax John Dale - AHA appointee 66 Rohill Road Neshantic Station, NJ 08853 908-369-3378 - home 908-369-3130 - fax MDHB07E at prodigy.com - e-mail Norman Dickenson - at-large delegate 1797 Judson Lane Santa Rosa, CA 95401 707-523-1565 - home norman.dickenson at sonoma.edu - e-mail Gregg Smith - HWBTA appointee 1900 Parkwood E101 Idaho Falls, ID 83401 208-524-0970 - home GSMITHBEER at eworld.com - e-mail Steve Stroud - at-large delegate 53 Tesla Avenue Medford, MA 02155 617-395-6822 - home 617-386-8542 - work STROUD%GAIA at cliffy.polaroid.com - e-mail Non-voting Members: Pat Baker - Co-director - HWBTA PO Box 81 Keene, NH 03431 603-355-3359 - home 74443.3040 at Compuserve.com - e-mail Alberta Rager - Co-director - AHA 8206 Bell Road Lenexa, KS 66219 913-894-9131 - home Tom Ayres - Associate Director - AHA Something's Brewing 196 Battery Street Burlington, VT 05401 802-434-1939 - home TAyres at aol.com - e-mail Marty Velas - Associate Director - HWBTA 10901 Nestle Avenue Northridge, CA 91326 818-831-3705 - home James Spence - Program Administrator - AHA Association of Brewers PO box 1679 Boulder, CO 80306-1679 303-447-0816 x121 - work 303-447-2825 -fax james at aob.org - e-mail Sponsor Presidents: Karen Barela - AHA Association of Brewers PO Box 1679 Boulder, CO 80306-1679 303-447-0816 x122 - work 303-447-2825 -fax karen at aob.org - e-mail Desmond Lundy - HWBTA PO Box 4220 Victoria, BC V8X 3X8 604-386-1023 - work 604-386-9733 - fax Russ Wigglesworth (INTERNET: Rad_Equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu - CI$: 72300,61) UCSF Dept. of Radiology, San Francisco, CA (415) 476-3668 / Home (707) 769-0425 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 19:29:15 From: lkbonham at beerlaw.win.net (Louis K. Bonham) Subject: Does AHA listen? Now that's it's official that the AHA will not interfere with the continued operation of the BJCP as an independent organization, it looks like we're gonna have two competing judge certification groups. Let the best group win! For those of you who are undecided as to which group to support, a brief data point: Given the historically-nondemocratic nature of the AHA, and their recent rhetoric that their judge program would be democratic, over a week ago I posted an open request here for the AHA to answer several hard question that many of us have concerning the AHA's real motives. To date, the AHA's only response has been a deafening silence. If the AHA is truly interested in democracy, it cannot hide from addressing these hard questions, both internally and to the judge community it is now wooing. Of course, if the AHA's newfound interest in democracy is but a fig leaf, and they intend to simply continue their business as usual, then its silence speaks volumes concerning its real motives. Does the AHA really care what the rank and file thinks? Let's see if they'll answer the questions I previously posed. If they do, the discussion can proceed from there. If not -- well, draw your own conclusions. Regards --- LKB ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************