From synchro!judge-owner at uu6.psi.com Tue Mar 7 12:14:30 1995 Status: O X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["10243" "" " 7" "March" "1995" "07:19:32" "EST" "JudgeNet Administrator" "judge-owner at synchro.com" nil "231" "JudgeNet Digest #990 (Mar 07, 1995)" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with X.500 id MAA24986; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 12:13:56 -0500 Received: from goodman.itn.med.umich.edu by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with SMTP id IAA18583; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 08:51:24 -0500 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA13313 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at umich.edu); Tue, 7 Mar 95 08:51:38 -0500 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA18752 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 95 08:18:34 -0500 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA16529; 7 Mar 95 07:19:32 EST (Tue) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9503070719.AA16529 at synchro.com> From: judge-owner at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #990 (Mar 07, 1995) Date: 7 Mar 95 07:19:32 EST (Tue) JudgeNet Digest #990 Tue 07 Mar 1995 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST digest submissions: judge at synchro.com administrative requests: judge-request at synchro.com send cancellations & rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu in /pub/judge WWW Archives: http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/Judge Gopher Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu Editor: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publishers: SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Comments on "True Democracy" (WALZENBREW) (Robert L. Lamothe) quoting Karen B. (Jay Hersh) RE: Reason for Judging (Jim Dipalma) The Beer Show (Sargee) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:55:36 -0500 From: WALZENBREW at aol.com Subject: Comments on "True Democracy" I would like to take this opportunity to say that Tom Ayres' posting in Digest #988 (True Democracy - A Modest Proposal) is one of the best suggestions I've seen here yet. Tom writes: Subject: quoting Karen B. >Let me quote K. Barela from her editorial in Z. "I'm a homebrewer-and proud of >it. In the end it doesn't really matter what the judges think of my homebrew." >Does this tell us that the expectations of the homebrewers entering competitions >are out of line and its not the judges that need education but the brewer, or is >this just really showing her overall contempt toward the judges? Maybe both?? and Robert L. Lamothe says I'll back Karen on this one. Because she's right. This is after all a hobby. Many of my friends who brew have yet to develop past the pre-hopped kit stage. Yet they are enthusiastic about the hobby and love the beer that they produce. While I personally participate in contests to find out how to improve my beer, many homebrewers aren't that serious about. and Jay Hersh says Bob you miss the point. your friends attitudes are fine, granted entering competitions isn't for everyone. no one is asking to judge their beer. submitting your beer to a competition is *totally* voluntary. As such remarks by the Pres. of AHA disparaging judges seem to me to be somewhat ill thought out. If you don't care what judges think of your beer then why enter?? Actually I don't think I do miss the point. My point is that you were quoting a line out of context. The sentence by itself does seem inflamatory, however without the rest of the article it's tough to know what exactly she was refering too. I don't want this to end up as a pissing contest. But in my own experience I've made beers that I felt were highly enjoyable thirst quenching beers that were docked big time by some judges. I even lost points in one contest because I had "Commercial fill" in the bottles. I've also lost points due to varying style guidelines. A pale ale I made was docked for being too light in OG, I wasn't trying for an IPA, just a PA. In actual experience I particpated as an apprentice judge at a contest and was judging stouts. We were given two particularly good stouts during the contest, however since both were oatmeal stouts they had to be entered into the sweet category. One of those beers lost 8 points for being too dry for a sweet stout, which was a real shame because it was so good. At worst Karen's comment could be considered contemptous, at best as you pointed out, ill concieved and delivered. However the point I feel she is trying to make is that high scores in a contest isn't the end all be all of brewing. The system is not infallable, many people complain that style guidelines are not uniform, my own experience backs this statement. I have the utmost respect for Certified and National judges and believe that they work hard and do so for the betterment of homebrewing. I hope to be among those ranks one day. But we have to keep in mind that a beer that earns 15 or 16 points in a contest could still be an enjoyable drink and a mark of pride for the brewer. As such we should not be allowed to rain on that brewers parade and deprive him/her of the pleasure of their brew. This is what I think Karen was trying to communicate in that sentence. I don't think she was trying to slam judges, but to boost the ego's of homebrewers who haven't done well in contests. -Bob JaH ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 95 16:47:23 EST From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma) Subject: RE: Reason for Judging Hi All, In #988, Dennis Davison writes: >I could say change to XXX yeast and the other judge could >say ferment warmer for more esters and fruityness. Are we both right? Yes >Is it confussing to a beginner? Yes. I would rather see just the perceptions >of the problems. Tell me not estery enough. Let me try and find out what >will produce more esters. Let me read and learn or let me go back to my >homebrew store and ask them. What will the retailer ask the brewer ? >If it's a decent store, They'll ask the brewer what yeast they used and what >was the ferm temp. Now the store can better answer and guide the brewer with >correct information, NOT guess work. That last statement presumes that the store owner is also sufficiently expert to understand the relationship between fermentation temperature, yeast strain, and ester development, and that is a *HUGE* presumption. There is no prerequisite that states that a person has to become an expert brewer before opening a homebrew supply store. Recently, a member of our local homebrewing club asked his local retailer for advice on how to ferment a lager. He was told to conduct primary fermentation "at 60F like the German breweries do". He was further told that lagering consists of one month in secondary at 45F. There is a steady stream of posts on HBD that begin with "I asked the owner of my local homebrew supply store for advice, and he said..", then continue with something as hideous as the above. There is a lot of seriously bad advice being dispensed by owners of homebrew supply stores. Before recommending (or condemning) them as a source of information, I'd first consider the owner's level of brewing expertise and experience. Personally, I'm going to continue to offer remedial suggestions when I judge. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 19:01:00 -0500 From: Sargee at aol.com Subject: The Beer Show TO: JUDGENET FROM: Chris Gordon (Sargee at aol.com) Industry Pictures Burbank, California I have am fascinated by the diversity of opinion. Is anyone seriously interested in stepping out from beind the Net and being interviewed for a new cable TV show we have in development on everyone's favorite subject? Industry Pictures specializes in the development of quirky reality shows and documentaries for domestic and international distribution. I have been quietly building a library of beer video (including interviews with a guru or two) and I now need a couple of judges to give us on-camera interviews. The concept is a serious look at contemporary brewing and brewers (big & small). If sold, the program could contribute to greater public interest in the art. If you are interested, you must be in Los Angeles or Southern Calfornia. (The project is still a labor of love: we don't have a travel budget). An interview takes about two hours and I am looking for interviewees who can explain the finer points in layman's terms. Previous TV exp not necessary. Adversity and pontification encouraged...Brief bio to sargee at aol.com ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************