From synchro!judge-owner at uu6.psi.com Tue Feb 28 06:39:57 1995 Status: O X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["22595" "" "28" "February" "1995" "05:12:59" "EST" "JudgeNet Administrator" "judge-owner at synchro.com" nil "596" "JudgeNet Digest #983 (Feb 28, 1995)" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with X.500 id GAA25388; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 06:39:40 -0500 Received: from goodman.itn.med.umich.edu by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with SMTP id GAA25383; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 06:39:39 -0500 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA02240 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at umich.edu); Tue, 28 Feb 95 06:39:50 -0500 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA24446 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 95 06:24:37 -0500 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA05719; 28 Feb 95 05:12:59 EST (Tue) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9502280512.AA05719 at synchro.com> From: judge-owner at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #983 (Feb 28, 1995) Date: 28 Feb 95 05:12:59 EST (Tue) JudgeNet Digest #983 Tue 28 Feb 1995 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST digest submissions: judge at synchro.com administrative requests: judge-request at synchro.com send cancellations & rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu in /pub/judge WWW Archives: http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/Judge Gopher Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu Editor: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publishers: SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Results of 1995 Boston Homebrew Competition (STROUD) BJCP Exam? (Steve Robinson) Some comments (Jim Busch) $$$ for the election of BJCC representatives (STROUD) San Diego Competition (Sarah White) AHA/BJCP survey (Btalk) BJCP type things ("Kieran O'Connor") Guild's Proposed Experience Credit (Bob Guerin) BJCP experience point filing fees for 1993 & 1994 (STROUD) Re: Call for resignations (BrewsMead) membership numbers (Chuck Cox) Lets Get It Together ("JOHN A. JR. CARLSON ") ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:43:29 -0400 (EDT) From: STROUD%GAIA at cliffy.polaroid.com Subject: Results of 1995 Boston Homebrew Competition The First Annual Boston Homebrerw Competition was held on Saturday, Febrewary 25th 1995, at the Commonwealth Brewing Company in Boston. Thanks to all of the entrants (257), judges (~40 from the BJCP), and stewards who made this competition a huge success! Special thanks to the following people/organizations: The Commonwealth Brewing Co. and Tod Mott (the head brewer) for providing the site for the competition, putting out a nice spread for lunch, and allowing us to get in your way during your busy workday. BarleyMalt and Vine and proprietor Dave Ruggerio for sponsoring the competition and providing the BOS prize. The following brewers placed in the competition: American Light Lagers/European Light lagers (collapsed) - 28 entries 3rd: Mike Fertsch (Woburn, MA) 2nd: Shekhar Nimkar (Lynn, MA) 1st: Bill Murphy (Brookline, MA) British Bitters - 19 entries 3rd: Jay Hersh (Arlington, MA) 2nd: Bill Tredo (Norton, MA) 1st: Richard Klug (Wellesley, MA) India Pale Ales - 8 entries 3rd: Stu Tallman (Rochester, MA) 2nd: David Brockington/Melinda Brockington (Seattle, WA) 1st: Christopher Gannon (Weare, NH) German Ales (alt & kolsch) - 11 entries 3rd: Jason Kinchon (Winchester, MA) 2nd: Dr. Timothy Dalton (N. Reading, MA) 1st: Bill Murphy (Brookline, MA) Oktoberfest/Vienna - 14 entries 3rd: George Fix (Arlington, MA) 2nd: Charlie Graham (Everett, MA) 1st: not awarded Brown Ales - 16 entries 3rd: Martin Stokes (Old Town, ME) 2nd: Ben Gleason (Portsmouth, NH) 1st: Brad Wheeler (Somerville, MA) European Dark Lagers - 6 entries 3rd: Rod Gardner - (Greenland, NH) 2nd: Mike Fertsch (Woooooburn, MA) 1st: Bill Murphy (Brookline, MA) Bockbiers - 13 entries 3rd: Thomas J. O'Connor, III, M.D. (Rockport, ME) 2nd: Bill Murphy (Brookline, MA) 1st: Bill Murphy (Brookline, MA) Porters - 13 entries 3rd: Bill Robinson (Carlisle, MA) 2nd: Scott Shurr (Waltham, MA) 1st: Joe Pleva/Steve LeBlanc (Londonderry, NH) Wheat Beers - 12 entries 3rd: Don Gosselin (Winthrop, MA) 2nd: Scott Penney (Norfolk, MA) 1st: Matt Smith (Boston, MA) Belgian Ales - 16 entries 3rd Thomas J. O'Connor, III, M.D. (Rockport, ME) 2nd: Rich Lenihan 1st: Dr. Timothy Dalton (N. Reading, MA) Specialty Beers- 40 entries 3rd: Steve Valley (Easthampton, MA) 2nd: Greg Kushmerek (Watertown, MA) 1st: Brad Wheeler (Somerville, MA) Strong Ales/Old Ales/Barleywine (collapsed) - 27 entries 3rd: David Brockington/Melinda Brockington (Seattle, WA) 2nd: Bill Murphy (Brookline, MA) 1st: Mike Fertsch (Woooburn, MA) - 2nd Runnerup, BOS Stout - 17 entries 3rd: Michale Biblyk (Newton, MA) 2nd: Jim D'Angelo (Marlboro, NA 1st: Bill Robinson (Carlisle, MA) - 1st Runnerup, BOS Pale Ales - 17 entries 3rd: Paul Sullivan (Brooklyn, NY) 2nd: Steve Valley (Easthampton, MA) 1st place and *BEST OF SHOW*: MICHAEL BIBLYK (Newton, MA) Judges Score Sheets will go out in the mail later this week. For those people who couldn't attend the competition, ribbons, etc. will be mailed in soon, but after the score sheets. Thanks to everyone and to all of the Wort Processors who did a lot of hard work getting the whole competition set up to run smoothly. Steve Stroud Beer Registrar for the BHC President, The Boston Wort Processors ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 09:41:42 EST From: Steve Robinson Subject: BJCP Exam? I hesitate to intrude into this forum, as I'm not at the present time a judge. I've only begun lurking here since the schism, when pointers on the HBD indicated that this was the place it would be discussed. My question is this. I'd been planning on taking the BJCP exam in the very near future when the schism occurred. Now I'm wondering if this is wise to do right now, or should I wait until after the dust settles? Is the exam schedule I received from the AHA still valid, or have most of the exams been put on hold for the interim? TIA for any advice/info. Steve Robinson steve.robinson at analog.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 10:27:10 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Busch Subject: Some comments Greg writes: I would also like to clarify that the AHA was supportive of the "at large" >election of delegates and that we even offered to pay for the elections. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Really? As a non-voting member of the BJCC, it is probable that I didn't see all of the paperwork that the committee generated. However, I am doubtful of Karen's statement regarding financing the elections - I was involved in discussing the financing question and don't recall ever seeing a letter or memo from Karen or anyone on the AHA staff that suggested that the AHA would give money to the program for the elections. It also seems clear from John Dale's HBD posting on Feb. 10th that he knew nothing about an AHA offer. To quote from John's posting: "The idea of elected representatives has come up on the JudgeNet and previously at BJCC meetings. The committee agreed in concept to the idea but there are some major logistics obstacles to overcome. How would candidates be nominated? How would they campaign? Balloting? Just the postage for one mailing to 1200 judges costs $384.00. Could/should we afford it? Should we exclude Recognized Judges to cut expenses? The BJCC had not come up with a solution that was even marginally satisfactory, in my opinion. So again, it comes done (sic) to the reality of making it all work, within budgetary constraints, and keeping most of the people happy most of the time. Not an easy task." Does this sound like a a BJCC rep who had ever heard *anything* about the AHA donating money for a BJCP election? Furthermore, I have never heard a suggestion from either the BJCC chairman (Russ Wigglesworth) or one of the Directors (Pat Baker) that the AHA ever offered to pay for such an election. Unless there was a string attached, I can't fathom why the program wouldn't have jumpd at the chance. By cc:ing this to Karen Barela, I am asking her to respond to Judgenet and myself and explain her statement regarding financing a BJCC election. If such an offer was actually made, I would like to know more of the details. Regards, Steve Stroud Assoc. Director, BJCP ************ stroud at hydra.polaroid.com ************ cc: Karen Barela, AHA President <75250.1350 at compuserve.com> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 11:08:42 -0500 From: swh at ll.mit.edu (Sarah White) Subject: San Diego Competition Could someone please send the information on the upcoming 11 March competition in San Diego to me at swh at ll.mit.edu. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 11:16:35 -0500 From: Btalk at aol.com Subject: AHA/BJCP survey I received my copy of this survey a couple days ago. After looking it over, it leaves me scratching my head and wondering why... Why couldn't this have been done within the existing framework? It seems that the goals for the 'new' judge program are a recap of what has been discussed here on a regular basis. Why weren't the judges surveyed when problems were first perceived? Or even surveyed on some sort of a periodical basis as a way of monitoring the health of the organization, instead of waiting until the situation became a crisis (at least in someone's opinion) and needed radical surgery. What were the program administrators paying attention to all along? I don't get it. Regards, Bob Talkiewicz, Binghamton, NY ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 12:32:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Kieran O'Connor" Subject: BJCP type things This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime at docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. - ---559023410-851401618-793905845=:23807 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: It seems to me that we should concentrate our efforts on putting together an independent BJCP which gives and grades the exam, and sanctions events. Competing organizations may or may not work, but will provide lots of problems as far as I can see. Further, it seems from the AHA's letter, that they want to do what we want to do anyway. Then it seems to me that the AHA should simply support an independent BJCP--unless they have reasons not to. With an independent BJCP, exam fees and sanctioning fees would more than cover the costs of mailing and database management. I dont think we'll need to charge judges fees. Take a look at Chuck's posting on the fincances of the BJCP. Those numbers do not include sanctioning fees: and still the BJCP was self supporting. Sanctioning fees will simply increase the BJCP's revenue. What we need to do is get a database somewhere, and appoint our own administrator. Perhaps someone who is working part time could handle this. The money paid to the AHA now for administration would then go to the new adminstrator. That done--the administrator would have a PO Box in his/her town and handle the correspondence. We could of course modify other things--but I say we move the current BJCPoutside the AHA/HWBTA and then make the changes we want. We could have an interim BJCC--and then hold elections in six months or so. Kieran ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kieran O'Connor E-Mail Address: koconnor at mailbox.syr.edu Syracuse, N.Y. USA In vino veritas; in cervesio felicitas. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ---559023410-851401618-793905845=:23807-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:57:07 -0800 From: bguerin at orincon.com (Bob Guerin) Subject: Guild's Proposed Experience Credit In JND 981, Bruce Stevens explains that his Guild would award credit for style judging as follows: > ... the Guild point system will allow you to credit your experience in > other sanctioned events as long as there are more than 6 entries in a > substyle. > > Note that this says substyles, not styles. For smaller competitions, this criteria will likely not be satified. In the last competition that I judged, the organizer combined English Bitters and Scottish Ales. The beers I judged went something like this: 1 Ordinary, 2 Specials, 4 ESBs, 1 Light, 2 Heavys, and 2 Exports. So I would not qualify for any credit. I think this policy is too limiting, and would cause more problems for contest organizers trying to get enough judges. I know that I would no longer drive the 100-200 miles to a competition that I have in the past if I were not going to receive any credit for it. Bob Guerin (bguerin at orincon.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 17:02:11 -0400 (EDT) From: STROUD%GAIA at cliffy.polaroid.com Subject: BJCP experience point filing fees for 1993 & 1994 I have a question for the AHA regarding experience point filing fees for the BJCP during the years 1993 and 1994. I am cc'ing Karen Barela on this message in order to receive a timely reply on JudgeNet. Can we get a reply within a day? >From the Financial posting that was made in JudgeNet #974, the following data is presented: =============================================================================== HISTORICAL DATA 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 } } } PLUS EP FEES: HWBTA 0 0 317 493 566 580 543 463 AHA 0 0 0 0 1,200 1,200 1,200 0 } } =============================================================================== PROJECTED AND ESTIMATED DATA 1994P 1994E 1995P } } PLUS EP FEES: HWBTA 350 350 300 AHA 0 0 I am confused regarding the point that the AHA paid no Experience Point filing fees to the BJCP during the years 1993 and 1994. Last fall, the Wort Processors decided to hold a homebrew competition in Feb. 1995. We requested paperwork from both the AHA & HWBTA. The HWBTA asks for $1 per experience point that is filed. Based on the number of competitions they sanctioned, I would guess that the amount of money they turned over to the BJCP is accurate. However, the AHA information packet included a statement under the heading "HOW MUCH DOES SANCTIONING COST?" The statement reads: "A $25 AHA member/$55 nonmember application fee must be submitted with the application form. An additional $15 fee is due when you send in your organizer report to cover costs of recording experience points for the BJCP judges who participated in the competition. The total cost of AHA sanctioning of your competition is $40 for AHA members, $70 for non-members." Now there is obviously something wrong here. Either the financial statement is incorrect or the AHA collected EP money from hundreds of competitions and never turned it over to the BJCP. If it is the former, then I would like to see the corrected statement. If it is the latter, then I think that the AHA has some answering to do, both to the BJCP and to all of the sanctioned competitions that gave them the $15 fee. Steve Stroud Assoc. Director, BJCP ************ stroud at hydra.polaroid.com ************ cc: Karen Barela <75250.1350 at compuserve.com> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 16:58:01 PST From: BrewsMead at eworld.com Subject: Re: Call for resignations Scotts comments about our unilateral Guild start-up and its rules are correct. We have done just that .... but the with the perverse intent of NOT MAKING MONEY ! The BJCC with the support of the HWBTA is an ethical problem and always has been. These people and the AHA are in the business of profitting from our membership. Therefore they cannot be allowed to make the rules. If their input is utilized as some associations allow , it must be in the minority and I mean the slim minority. One HWBTA rep could be on a council of 9 or more independant homebrewer judge representatives. Soundz reasonable in my experience running trade associations . So in that vein ,I suggest to the BJCC Chairman , that the committee resign immediately and take the nomination process public to the BJCP participants via mail. If I want to nominate someone for this Phoenix (and I will), then it can be done properly to keep the process on the up+up. I don't believe that self nominated individuals are the way to go no matter how scrupulous their credentials and intent. Like any body that assembles to conduct business in some form , you can get yourself nominated by a peer and seconded before the ballot is listed and reviewed by the group before the elections are to take place. Then it has the smackings of a fair and proper ethical set-up. So I am calling for the resignations of all BJCC comittee members except the Chair (to organize the process) and ask that Des Lundy nominate some individual to the new committee to represent the HWBTA's interest. For the sake of appearances , I suggest the nominee be someone without prior BJCP experience that has a fresh outlook on the whole scene . Greg Walz made some insightful comments about the situation also and I'd like to have everyone participate in the continued formation of the Guild of Brewers and Judges. Your comments , whether pro or con are helping develop the rules into a more functional set that can be distributed nationally in the near future. Gregg Smith's point /counterpoint is helping us flesh out the areas that need clarification before everyone can decide which judging group is the preferred one to get involved with and support for the long term. Not that you can't have more than one association to be involved with , but there should be one that you think like . We still look forward to the regional process and a meeting down in Baltimore for those interested in pursuing the Guild 's simple system of judge recognition and desire to enjoy the process of competing without all the politics. Let's help brewers make better beer to judge . Regards, Bruce Stevens ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 23:50:21 EST From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox) Subject: membership numbers Does anyone have any BJCP membership figures? I'd be interested in any concrete numbers; historical or current, by rank if possible. Thanks. - -- Chuck Cox SynchroSystems / Riverside Garage & Brewery - Cambridge, Mass. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 11:09:31 -0700 (MST) From: "JOHN A. JR. CARLSON " Subject: Lets Get It Together As a recognized judge I can say that I have really enjoyed my time in the BJCP program. I have met some great people and continue to learn more and more about a hobby I enjoy. The AHA has decided to do what they are doing in an effort to improve the program. AHA does not want to destroy a good thing (i.e. the BJCP). Rather, the AHA wants to reform the program so that it can better serve its members. Lets try to help the process so that everyone is a winner. My concerns with the old program included exams that were two to three months late, poor feedback from exam graders, and a report to participants that was in need of revision. If the new program can better address these issues count me in. We should move forward and get the new program up and running in a manner that we feel is optimum. John A. Carson, Jr. ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************