From synchro!judge-request at uu6.psi.com Mon Feb 6 05:58:55 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7773" "" " 6" "February" "1995" "05:13:17" "EST" "JudgeNet Administrator" "judge-owner at synchro.com" nil "185" "JudgeNet Digest #961 (Feb 06, 1995)" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: by truelies.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with X.500 id FAA17467; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 05:58:53 -0500 Received: from goodman.itn.med.umich.edu by truelies.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with SMTP id FAA17462; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 05:58:52 -0500 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA14136 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at umich.edu); Mon, 6 Feb 95 05:58:49 -0500 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA12098 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 95 04:26:54 -0500 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA23092; 6 Feb 95 05:13:17 EST (Mon) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9502060513.AA23092 at synchro.com> From: judge-owner at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #961 (Feb 06, 1995) Date: 6 Feb 95 05:13:17 EST (Mon) JudgeNet Digest #961 Mon 06 Feb 1995 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST digest submissions: judge at synchro.com administrative requests: judge-request at synchro.com send cancellations & rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu in /pub/judge WWW Archives: http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/Judge Gopher Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu Editor: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publishers: SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Now is the time for all good men to fight ("Lee Bussy") Democracy: the implementation (Rick Garvin (703-761-6630)) BJCP: Has the sky REALLY fallen?? (Andrew Patrick) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 09:14:17 +0000 From: "Lee Bussy" Subject: Now is the time for all good men to fight Gentlemen, Patrick Baker gives us his opinion about the BJCP problem (or is it solution?): > BJCP RECOGNIZED COMPETITIONS: The decision of the AHA to do a judge > certification program will likely force the BJCP to recognize or sanction > competitions. Since the goal of the BJCP is to recognize judging experience, > there are no plans not to give credit for judging at any properly authorized and > run competition, AHA, HWBTA or BJCP. People should continue to judge at all > good competitions for experience point credit. I belive this to be true. What we should do then is instutute a weel thought out plan and get the ball rolling... Understand the well thought out part. It would be very easy to just sit complacently and say: Ok, let's just do it ourselves". Ain't going to happen by itself. We need a center... a point to rally around. We need a purpose. I formally propose that we use this resource (the JudgeNet Digest) as a means of "intra commitee" communication as it were. Let's ahsh this out in record time and get it to our fellow net challenged judges. Each judge on the net in a particular area that can represent a group of judges will take the responsibility to disseminate info and collect support. If there is more than one judge on the net in a particular area, fine, split the list and get to work. What we tell them is now secondary to establishing a network to disseminate the info to tell them. > Patrick N. Baker, BJCP Co-Director This brings up an interesting point. Do we use the existing structure of the BJCP or start over? An entity independant of the HWBTA seems the best way to go or else there is competition of sorts between them and the AHA. Patrick, while you are an agent of the BJPC not the HWBTA, are you really independant of the HWBTA? Can we do this as a seperate organization as it sits? And if we sever ties with the HWBTA will it even be the BJCP or will the AHA and the HWBTA pout and force us to never utter those initials again? Also, Patrick makes a good point about experience points. We should recognize _any_ reputable competition and award experience point for the judges efforts. Not to get into the business of sanctioning competitions but just acnowledge that a judge gains experience every time he sits down at a competition and reward him for his effort. This would indeed take the starch out of the AHA's plans to have a seperate group of judges. Any way it goes, I am commited to make it work. I'd like to get something in place soon. Give the judges an option as soon as the mailings go out later this month. - -- -Lee Bussy | The 4 Basic Foodgroups.... | leeb at southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women! | Wichita, Kansas | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb | ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 11:08:57 -0500 (EST) From: rgarvin at pop.btg.com (Rick Garvin (703-761-6630)) Subject: Democracy: the implementation I have been watching the whole AHA pull out of BJCP and wondering "so what?" The only down side I see is the need to assume the administrative burden on short notice. This looks like to me the opportunity to introduce all of the suggestions that I have been seeing the last few months on how to improve the BJCP. I think that Scott Bickham's comments are nicely to the point. An oganization like this needs to run on volunteers. Having national leadership with regional representation and administration can address many of the problems that we have seen. By delegating the administrivia to regional levels the work load is reduced to a level managable by volunteers. It would make sense to delegate to each region: o collections of monies o sanctioning of contests o exam administration o database maintenance o distribution of newsletter To minimize the chance of malfeasance we should probably have the exams graded by other regions and the exams written by a national body. Some may argue that delegating the collection of monies imposes some risk. But, in democracy there must be trust. Delegation to this extent could leave the national body the important roles of setting policy, publishing the newsletter, arranging national events, maintaining national database, and coordinating exam grading. How does the national body come to be? How about putting each regionally elected director on it and having them elect the national officers? This should be fun! Cheers, Rick Rick Garvin, rgarvin at btg.com, http://www.btg.com/~rgarvin BTG, Corporation Information Systems Group, Vienna, VA 22182 800-548-7466 Senior Systems Engineer, Internet Administrator 703-761-6630 FAX x3245 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 12:14:49 -0600 (CST) From: Andrew Patrick Subject: BJCP: Has the sky REALLY fallen?? Well, I have followed all this with great interest, and for once had the good sense to keep my mouth shut till I got some facts. I showed up at the HWBTA Nationals to judge here in Chicago last Friday night, expecting to find a lot of HWBTA folks bashing the AHA. Instead, the first thing I see is James Spence congenially discussing the issue. Hmmmm, I thought - curiouser and curiouser. And where were all the HWBTA folks?? Nowhere to be seen. BTW, he told me that a much more detailed announcement about the AHA's intentions with their program will made to this forum SOON (prob this week). Regardless, plenty of good judges showed up, and we all sat down and did the business at hand of judging the 270 beers that needed to be judged, Yah, sure, there were some jokes about "gee, I wonder what kinda points I'm gettin fer this", but overall, the judging proceeded as per usual. Thinking it over afterwards, I realized that I should have known that this was the case. Most beer judges treat it as a _professional_ obligation, and take pride in doing good work. These judges are going to continue to do so, whether they are getting points from the BJCP, the AHA, both, or _neither_. I know that I do a lot of serious judging in club competitions and other places where I dont get any points _at_all_. I do it because it helps my friends and colleaugues become better brewers, and because it helps promote awareness about what _good_beer_ is really all about. I dont need to earn a few points in a database somewhere to get satisfaction from that. Regards, Andy Patrick Certified Beer Judge Founder, HomeBrew U BBS Network (Chicago/Houston/Milwaukee) Brewing Instructor, College of DuPage County, IL ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************