From synchro!judge-request at uu6.psi.com Sun Feb 5 05:55:07 1995 X-VM-Summary-Format: "%n %*%a %-17.17F %-3.3m %2d %4l/%-5c %I\"%s\"\n" X-VM-Labels: nil X-VM-VHeader: ("Resent-" "From:" "Sender:" "To:" "Apparently-To:" "Cc:" "Subject:" "Date:" "X-Digest") nil X-VM-Bookmark: 1 Status: O X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["15454" "" " 5" "February" "1995" "05:14:07" "EST" "JudgeNet Administrator" "judge-owner at synchro.com" nil "344" "JudgeNet Digest #960 (Feb 05, 1995)" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil (number " " mark "U JudgeNet Administ Feb 5 344/15454 " thread-indent "\"JudgeNet Digest #960 (Feb 05, 1995)\"\n") nil] nil) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with X.500 id FAA03927; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 05:55:04 -0500 Received: from goodman.itn.med.umich.edu by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with SMTP id FAA03909; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 05:54:59 -0500 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA04506 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at umich.edu); Sun, 5 Feb 95 05:54:55 -0500 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA22096 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 95 04:30:04 -0500 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA18726; 5 Feb 95 05:14:07 EST (Sun) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9502050514.AA18726 at synchro.com> From: judge-owner at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #960 (Feb 05, 1995) Date: 5 Feb 95 05:14:07 EST (Sun) JudgeNet Digest #960 Sun 05 Feb 1995 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST digest submissions: judge at synchro.com administrative requests: judge-request at synchro.com send cancellations & rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu in /pub/judge WWW Archives: http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/Judge Gopher Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu Editor: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publishers: SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Costs, etc ("Kieran O'Connor") One more thought ("Kieran O'Connor") Re: Returned mail: User unknown ("Lee Bussy") Bluebonnet details (BREWS) Some ideas for the BJCP (bickham) AHA/BJCP Chaos (Stephen L. Black) New Order (Ed Hitchcock) BJCP ("PATRICK N. BAKER") ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 08:18:13 -0500 (EST) From: "Kieran O'Connor" Subject: Costs, etc Given that it costs to sanction a contest now through the AHA--can't that money be simply diverted to the BJCP? If this were done, would we necessarily need to charge judges a membership fee? Chuck--did the AHA drain money--and if so, wouldnt that mean we would then have money to have an independent BJCP? Kieran O'Connor E-Mail Address: koconnor at mailbox.syr.edu Syracuse, N.Y. USA In vino veritas; in cervesio felicitas. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 08:29:13 -0500 (EST) From: "Kieran O'Connor" Subject: One more thought It seems to me that if the BJCP is to thrive, as in *independent* entity, then we need to make sure that it is the only certification program. We need to get the word out to those judges who have no net access that they shoudlnt change over to the new AHA "certification" prgoram, whatever that is. Without a critical mass of qualified judges, the AHA program is doomed to failure. Talk to your friends and colleages--further, drop your AHA membership since it is no longer required to earn points--and tell your friends. Kieran O'Connor E-Mail Address: koconnor at mailbox.syr.edu Syracuse, N.Y. USA In vino veritas; in cervesio felicitas. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 07:39:35 +0000 From: "Lee Bussy" Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown Someone with the e-mail address: Sent me a request for a competition packet, the mail bounced. Please mail me again with a valid address. - -- -Lee Bussy | The 4 Basic Foodgroups.... | leeb at southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women! | Wichita, Kansas | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb | ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Feb 1995 09:18:22 -0500 (EST) From: BREWS at delphi.com Subject: Bluebonnet details I have the luck to be spending some time in Dallas right after the Competition and have arranged my schedule to fly in early (to get those great air rates) .I'm planning on attending the Bluebonnet and would like to judge and meet some brewers in the area to do some technology exchange...? There seems to be a fun way of doing things here in New England. We have a beds for judges program in Vt for travellers coming to the Green Mt. Comp and I wondered if you people did this down in Texas? I'll be flying in on Friday afternoon and would also like to go see some of the breweries in the area ,since I'll probably be at the competition all day Saturday and would miss the pub crawl. What would be a suggestion to see if I only had time for 1 or 2 ? I'd like to get back to the Friday evening reception with Charlie Papazian (I figure it should make for an interesting nite with all the brewhaha about the judging program etc.). I have business in Arlington Sun-Tues. with a firm called Andritz Ruthner and wondered if anyone from one of the area clubs happened to work there? If not then would there be anything special to see and do in Arlington whilst there? Evenings are generally free at these sales meetings and Sun -Mon I could sneak in some beer travel to other pubs or bars that handle specialty brews on tap ? I'd appreciate any help I could get from the judges in the area and also wonder if there's any registration forms for judges to pre-reg with for the Bluebonnet Comp.? One last thing before I forget, Austin is a 3 hour ride I hear and seems a bit far but is there a chance of getting any of Celis's wares in the DFW area? ****************************** Since this is all sort of judging related I should stick in another plug for the newly formed " Order of the Glass". As a founding member and perennial road hound who travels for good brew, I can induct members to the SBJS , Secret Beer Judge Society, at my discretion. Those of you who judge with a member or are deemed worthy to drink heavily with and spend the wee hours of the day with members can thus be inducted ? I look forward to spreading the news at the Bluebonnet and setting up those who love brew the most , with their own etched symbol of fraterity .. the Glass! This society is secretive and by invitation only so it should take 6-12 months for the domino to roll around the country before we outnumber the BJCP,AHA version and the Master Sommeliers of America. ....More to Come... Thanx in advance for your help from the DFW area! Brews Stevens - M.A.L.T. My phone number is 207 395-4554 and fax is 4561 if there's anyone interested in talking about Bluebonnet or The Order of the Glass. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 09:49:40 -0500 (EST) From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu Subject: Some ideas for the BJCP Hello again, I've been mulling over what would be required for a successful, independent BJCP. I'm sorry if it sounds pedantic, but I'm just making suggestions. 1. Database. The first step is to acquire the same names and judging history used by the AHA/HWBTA. Not that I don't trust the AHA, but I think it's important to get this before the 90 day transition period ends. We would then have to develop ways of doing bulk mailings to the 1000-2000 participants in the form of quarterly newsletters, and then mail out updates of judging stati (the plural of status?) and experience points. For competitions, we would need to download a list of judges in that particular region and send it to the organizer. I feel a nominal fee should be charged for this, but it should be optional. My wife deals with a data base of ten of thousands of alumni, so doing similar operations for a few thousand judges shouldn't be challenging. 2. Membership fees. Nothing's free, and if we want to operate this on our own, we need to support it ourselves. I would be more than willing to pay something close the current zymurgy subscription rate, since $20-30 fees are typical in many professional organizations. This money would be used for printing and mailing costs, as well as the salary of a part time administrator who will make sure everything runs smoothly. I would be agreeable to accepting limited advertisements in the quarterly newsletter, but that's a touchy issue that should be discussed later. 3. Regional representatives. Instead of co-directors, having someone in charge in various regions would spread out the work load of giving and grading exams. These representative would be elected by judges in their area. 4. A national competition. Not only would we sanction competitions, but we should sponsor our own, perhaps in conjunction with a conference. The AHA format seems to be pretty popular (except for the cost), so we could design something similar with 1st round regionals, etc. 5. Start-up fees. This will be unpopular, but I think many of us would throw in a few extra dollars to get things off the ground. The BJCP should be a nonprofit organization, which requires some legal fees, and there are probably some other business aspects that need to be considered as well. Any follow-ups will be appreciated. Scott - -- ======================================================================== Scott Bickham bickham at msc.cornell.edu ========================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 08:49:31 -0600 From: sblack at mail.utexas.edu (Stephen L. Black) Subject: AHA/BJCP Chaos This latest move by the AHA drives the final nail in the coffin and confirms everything I have been hearing and thinking about the self-serving leadership of said organization. No chance in hell for meaningful reform and every reason to suspect the motives. "the AHA is committed to making this transition a positive one" -- I'll bet. Positive for whom? This positively confirms my decision to kiss AHA bye-bye. Thanks Karen and CP. Good luck with this year's Nationals. We judges need to use the chaos to find time and energy to insure BJCP program continues and thrives in new format. I support efforts to bring democratic reform and promote an efficient, minimalist, rational, administration. Yours in the cause, Ma Black ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 11:21:30 -0400 (AST) From: Ed Hitchcock Subject: New Order In response to comments in today's digest, I must point out that the BJCP is already international in scope, at least the queen was still on our money last I looked (And our dollar is a "loonie" not a "buck"). There was mention of other judging and sanctioning bodies, and it got me wondering... We are a varried lot on a varried lot of systems, PC's, Macs, SPARCstations etc. Yet we all communicate perfectly well. In the new independant BJCP, perhaps one of the first orders of business should be to set guidelines for cross-platform points. By this I mean a judge need be a judge in only one programme, but could accumulate points by judging in other programme sponsored competitions. Thus you could take AHA judging points and put them towards your BJCP rank. Why? Well, it seems to me that there is some intent on the part of the AHA to let the BJCP flounder and die. Assuming we don't, if we accept AHA judging points towards BJCP rank, and the AHA does not accept BJCP points towards AHA rank, which group do you think the judges will go with? This also opens the possibility of transcontinental judging. Going to the UK? Want to judge in a competition while you're there? Arrangements could be made to contact the UK organization, and have the judging points passed back to BJCP. Of course, if the AHA does accept BJCP points, and also makes international connections, well then it would be simple redundancy and waste. Is Ms Barela reading this? So let's get our act together and contact foreign judging organizations for their support in forming an independant and democratic Beer Judging organization. Just think, and international network of beer judges. Anytime you go on vacation you could find a competition to attend. The learning potential is tremendous, and think of all the people you'd meet. Then we could have the INTERJudgeNet Digest! (InterBrew is already taken...) ed ---------------- ehitchcock at sparc.uccb.ns.ca the Pick & Fossil Picobrewery brewers of Ed's Paleo Pale Ale and Right Coast IPA ------------------------------ Date: 04 Feb 95 17:01:56 EST From: "PATRICK N. BAKER" <74443.3040 at compuserve.com> Subject: BJCP As a founding member of both the HWBTA and the BJCP, and having been involved in both organizations during their entire existence, I would like to provide some factual background to assist people in assessing the AHA's withdrawal of sponsorship of the BJCP, and creation of their own "in house" judge program. HWBTA DESCRIPTION: The HWBTA was founded in 1975. It is an association of companies and individuals involved in the home beer and wine trade, including retailers, wholesalers, manufacturers, authors and publishers. Current membership is around 500 entities. Members are primarily in the U.S. and Canada, but overseas manufacturers are well represented. The organization is loose, with minimum overhead and bureaucracy. The Association has an Executive Secretary and publishes an annual directory of members. The major function of the organization is to sponsor an annual trade conference, which is an opportunity for members to get together to exchange ideas and information, and discuss problems in the home wine and beer industry. The Association has a quarterly newsletter, the ADVOCATE, which is published with the assistance of Celebrator Brew News. A purpose of the organization is to work together to help solve major problems. For instance, the HWBTA was a primary force in the legalization of home brewing in 1979. My business partner, Nancy Crosby, was HWBTA President in 1979, and worked closely with Lee Coe to get Alan Cranston to introduce legalization legislation in the U.S. Congress. Another major contibution of the HWBTA was the creation of the BJCP in 1985. The HWBTA initiated the BJCP in order to foster better beer and brewing. To make it an organization representing both brewers and the trade, the HWBTA encouraged the AHA to join in partnership to sponsor the BJCP. The HWBTA has modest resources. While significant funding could be raised through the HWBTA for an appropriate cause, the BJCP should not expect significant funding from the HWBTA. BJCP OPERATIONS: There appears to be some confused thinking that the AHA has canceled the BJCP. This is entirely untrue. The AHA has canceled their sponsorship of the BJCP. The BJCP is an entity that has been self-financed and has operated independently for a number of years. James Spence, of the AHA, has been the paid BJCP Administrator. A new administrator will be needed, and several options are being evaluated. Operations continue normally despite the AHA announcement. BJCP FINANCES: The BJCP is largely financed by exam fees. With about 400 exams in 1994 at $30 or $50 each, gross revenue was around $16,000. Forty percent is spent on exam grading and administration costs. Roughly twenty percent goes for things like pins and the brochure. Roughly forty percent has been paid to the AHA for the BJCP Administrator, reflecting expense for judge correspondence, exam result and experience point recording. The BJCP Administrator has handled a lot of data quite competently and at low cost. BJCP RECOGNIZED COMPETITIONS: The decision of the AHA to do a judge certification program will likely force the BJCP to recognize or sanction competitions. Since the goal of the BJCP is to recognize judging experience, there are no plans not to give credit for judging at any properly authorized and run competition, AHA, HWBTA or BJCP. People should continue to judge at all good competitions for experience point credit. Patrick N. Baker, BJCP Co-Director ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************