From synchro!judge-request at uu6.psi.com Fri Feb 3 14:25:16 1995 Status: RO X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["12095" "" " 3" "February" "1995" "12:28:32" "EST" "JudgeNet Administrator" "judge-owner at synchro.com" nil "294" "JudgeNet Digest #958 (Feb 03, 1995)" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with X.500 id OAA06806; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:25:13 -0500 Received: from goodman.itn.med.umich.edu by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with SMTP id OAA06797; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:25:11 -0500 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA11009 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at umich.edu); Fri, 3 Feb 95 14:25:07 -0500 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA12255 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 95 12:53:50 -0500 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA19451; 3 Feb 95 12:28:32 EST (Fri) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9502031228.AA19451 at synchro.com> From: judge-owner at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #958 (Feb 03, 1995) Date: 3 Feb 95 12:28:32 EST (Fri) JudgeNet Digest #958 Fri 03 Feb 1995 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST digest submissions: judge at synchro.com administrative requests: judge-request at synchro.com send cancellations & rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu in /pub/judge WWW Archives: http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/Judge Gopher Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu Editor: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publishers: SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Re: Independent BJCP (bickham) AHA/BJCP ETC. (Btalk) AHA at odds with BJCP? (Bob_McIlvaine) Re: Evolution of BJCP ("C. John Mare") Politics of Power (Norman Dickenson) The NEW ORDER (BREWS) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 08:29:33 -0500 (EST) From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu Subject: Re: Independent BJCP Chuck Cox wrote: > > Now that the AHA is out of the picture, I think it is time for the BJCP > to become truly independent and democratic. I second that motion. Frankly I was a little surprised that the AHA made the move to separate at this time. There has been some disillusionment with the BJCP, but most of those issues can be traced back to the AHA half of the program. While it does require money to support a judge certification program, the relatively high cost is directly correlated with Chuck's comment: > I have had the opportunity to review some BJCP financial statements and > am convinced that there has been quite a bit of administrative waste. Here on Judgenet, we have developed some decent style guidelines - if you look at the categories for the upcoming Boston Competition, you'll see that the Wort Processors homebrew club has used our comments to create pretty accurate descriptions. Note that this competition is sponsored by the HWBTA ;-) Finally many of us, particularly the intermediate to advanced homebrewers, do not wish to keep our AHA membership intact by subscribing to Zymurgy, which is really a second- rate magazine compared to Brewing Techniques and the American Brewer. Okay no more whining. Now that the wheels are in motion, we need to formally create an independent BJCP with administators that are elected by the homebrewing and beer judging community. This body would not be designed to compete with anything developed by the AHA, but I feel it's important to keep it financially and politically separate from any commercial organization. From what I've seen here, it appears that a large percentage of the judges that have "rebelled" against the AHA are National and Master judges. This would worry me if I were the AHA, but it will help get the new, independent BJCP off to a good start. Scott Bickham bickham at msc.cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:43:53 -0500 From: Btalk at aol.com Subject: AHA/BJCP ETC. While this situation is confusing at best, I support the idea of an independent BJCP, however that may be achieved. The upshot of this is that I don't have to subscribe to Zymurgy any longer ;> Rats! I just renewed my AHA membership :-( Regards, Bob Talkiewicz, Binghamton, NY ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Feb 95 11:32:08 EST From: Bob_McIlvaine at keyfile.com Subject: AHA at odds with BJCP? Anybody else see this little tidbit: >From Packet: MVCOMM >Message # 60 Area : 0 rec.crafts.br >From : Fcmbh at access.digex.net 02-02-95 07:41 >To : All >Subj : AHA pulls out of Judge Pr >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Xref: mv rec.crafts.brewing:42369 >Path: mv!news5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail >From: fcmbh at access.digex.net (Fred Hardy) >Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing >Subject: AHA pulls out of Judge Program >Date: 2 Feb 1995 07:41:44 -0500 >Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA >Lines: 21 >Message-ID: <3gqju8$qe8 at access1.digex.net> >NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net >Keywords: Beer Judge Certification Program (BJCP) > >For those who may not have gotten the word, the American Homebrewers >Association (Charlie Papazian's personal ego trip) has decided to >withdraw support for the Beer Judge Certification Program. Their >announcement indicated that they will start their own. Presumably they >felt they did not have enough control because of having to work with the >BJCC and the HWBTA. > >They offered no reasons other than a vague statement on conflicting >philosophies. Cynics among us might feel that someone pissed off old >Charlie and his staff of cute kids at the AHA > >Stay tuned. The joint venture ends on April 19, 1995. > >BREW ON .....................fred > > >-- >============================================================================== >We must invent the future, else it will | >happen to us and we will not like it. | >[Stafford Beer, "Platform for Change"] | email: fcmbh at access.digex.net > > >****************************************************************************** > Mac ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 09:48:02 -0700 (MST) From: "C. John Mare" Subject: Re: Evolution of BJCP It was with considerable interest that I read Karen Barela's notification of AHA's decision to cease sponsorship of the BJCP. This seemed to me to be a positive and necessary evolutionary step in the growth of our program, one which clearly needs to be independent from other organizations with different, if related, goals. The AHA deserves credit for it's foresight in joining with the HWBTA in the birthing of the BJCP. It was with dismay that, on reading further, I discovered that the AHA intent was to start a new, and obviously competing, certification program. Not knowing the details of the "differences" in philosophy, I cannot speak to the reasons for wanting to in effect split a family of beer judges who are the envy of the rest of the home-brewing world. This sems to me to be totally unnecessary, and I would urge the AHA to reconsider. The HWBTA is to be congratulated on its position that the BJCP should stand alone, and that it is now mature enough to embrace the democratic format. I see this change as an opportunity! Lets not take up cudgels and destroy what has been laboriously built for so long. We can adapt though this crisis by evolving into a stronger and independent organization, hopefully with the moral support of both our parents, the AHA and the HWBTA. The time has come to leave the nest, and I for one welcome the challenge of finding my wings. I will be glad to participate in any constructive moves to build on the foundation which we have established. Carpe diem, John Mare, Recognized BJCP Judge Tucson, AZ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 09:21:20 +0800 (U) From: Norman Dickenson Subject: Politics of Power Subject: Time:8:32 AM OFFICE MEMO Politics of Power Date:2/2/95 At face value, the announcement by the non-elected president of the AHA to terminate the sponsoring relationship with the BJCP and to develop a new parallel judging organization controlled by the AHA seems somewhat akin to Russia's response to breakaway republics, or even the USA war policy during the Vietnam conflict (it was necessary to destroy the village to save it). As a long time AHA member, I am flabbergasted that such a decisive and devisive action was taken without the feedback of the membership. Yet another example of a lack of democracy-in-action. As the BJCP is cast adrift without even a public venue to support it's existence, so are the rank and file participants who in good faith joined the BJCP. The need to absolutely control is a baffling personality trait which I have never been able to understand. Such figures as Stalin, Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, etc., come to mind with the visions they each portrayed and enacted. For the AHA to be unable to relate with others in a democratic manner speaks loudly about insecurity, disrespect, and a lack of social grace. While my comments are, of course, passionate and critical, sometimes it is necessary to stand up and be counted. In my opinion, this action of divide-and-conquer will do nothing positive for the homebrewing community, but rather create two camps of antagonists, each refusing to participate in activities with the other. The echo of Tuesday night's salvo will be heard for a long long time to come. This is how civil wars start. I'm so, so sorry for everyone, even that small group who think they are doing the right thing. ;>( ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Feb 1995 06:56:47 -0500 (EST) From: BREWS at delphi.com Subject: The NEW ORDER You are all whiners and wimps ! I wish that you would get with the new program and open your eyes about all this crap between the AHA + HWBTA. The politics of both systems are flawed and must be destroyed before they reproduce at random (the chaos theory). The only correct solution is to form a new order from the ashes of the old. We must immediately stop the feeding of the bad systems . DO NOT ENTER THE AHA NATIONAL COMPETITIONS! STOP GIVING THE BUGGERS YOUR MONEY! DO NOT ASK FOR HWBTA SANCTIONING EITHER > SAVE YOUR MONEY! OVER???????? We are all reasonable intelligent people and respect each others concepts. We must come together in a National Jamboree to elect our new leaders from the rubble of the past. Robert's Rules of Order establish the basics for a deliberative body and the first thing to do is to elect the new leaders at a grass roots jamboree. Parliamentary law in its own glory is the basis of civilized society and as such I suggest we adopt it as the baseline for the New Order of the Glass! What are we truly made of ? Now is the time for all good judges to come to the aid of their society ! We must assemble and elect our leaders . I can only suggest that we do it in the heartland of our country in the shadow of the river of life, the mighty Mississippi... in St Louis .. .at the heart of the Beast that drove us on this Quest ...? Stephen Hale can you hear me? Can we gather at your fermenters to decide the fate of the nation? This like any other volunteer system could be run by the old ,the rich and the retired. So I daresay that we must prevent that from happening and set minimum standards for our leadership. Young stupid villains with balls to match their swelling brains must be conjured up to ride the brewponys out of the canyon. No fees need be paid to sanction competitions. They will advertise their integrity on their sleeves by the company they keep. If judges want to have their noses certified , then they must judge to a style with a more experienced peer. Or they can pass the forced choice triangle olfactometer test with trained sniffers and certify their ability to detect specific compounds....as long as they never tell me how I forgot to sanitize my equipment again. Charles is right. No more pussyfooting around. The Order of the Glass stands at seven right now and we welcome your sword in our stead! We have responsibilities to the brewers who pay for their evaluations and that is all. Come join us on the road and see the world thru the eyes of a blind man? Smell the roses and enjoy their time in the sun! Regards, Brews Stevens - All good things come to those who wait! ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************