From synchro!judge-request at uu6.psi.com Thu Feb 2 06:07:06 1995 Status: O X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["19125" "" " 2" "February" "1995" "05:14:04" "EST" "JudgeNet Administrator" "judge-owner at synchro.com" nil "452" "JudgeNet Digest #957 (Feb 02, 1995)" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: by truelies.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with X.500 id GAA23463; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 06:07:02 -0500 Received: from goodman.itn.med.umich.edu by truelies.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) with SMTP id GAA23458; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 06:07:01 -0500 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA20471 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at umich.edu); Thu, 2 Feb 95 06:06:59 -0500 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA02590 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 95 04:35:07 -0500 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA01620; 2 Feb 95 05:14:04 EST (Thu) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9502020514.AA01620 at synchro.com> From: judge-owner at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #957 (Feb 02, 1995) Date: 2 Feb 95 05:14:04 EST (Thu) JudgeNet Digest #957 Thu 02 Feb 1995 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST digest submissions: judge at synchro.com administrative requests: judge-request at synchro.com send cancellations & rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu in /pub/judge WWW Archives: http://guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu/Beer/Judge Gopher Archives: guraldi.hgp.med.umich.edu Editor: Chuck Cox Archivist: Spencer Thomas Publishers: SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: What now? ("Lee Bussy") BJCP musings (Jim Cave) Independent BJCP (Chuck Cox) Points for Judging at Cider National (Sarah White) Re: JudgeNet Digest #956 (Feb 01, 1995) (Tom Baier) AHA ANNOUNCEMENT OF CANCELLATION OF BJCP SPONSORSHIP ("PATRICK N. BAKER") BJCP Program Changes (Jim Liddil) Re: AHA & BJCP (Dennis Davison) AFCHBC Competition announcement (Dion Hollenbeck) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 06:39:30 +0000 From: "Lee Bussy" Subject: What now? Well, what do we do know? What happens? With the AHA pullout of the BJCP are we left stranded? Sure, they say that judges will be accepted from the "old" program at a level commensurate with their "old" one but where are we really? I suppose for a while at competitions both will be accepted. At an AHA competiton perhaps BJCP judges will be allowed to sit in but I assume no points will be awarded. Likewise the AHA judges. Now no matter what we do if we participate in HWBTA competitions and AHA competitions we will be progressing at half pace. Is this what we are to expect from the AHA in the future? If they can't be the center of attention then I suppose they don't want to play. "Fundamental Differences". Hmm. Did someone not kiss someone's butt? If this sounds like I feel abandoned and pissed then it's only because I am. Patrick Baker, please comment on this.... We'd all like to know where we stand. Who will administer the BJCP if anyone? What kind of competition structure will be emplaced? This is the death of a happy homebrew competition community... mark my words. - -- -Lee Bussy | The 4 Basic Foodgroups.... | leeb at southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women! | Wichita, Kansas | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 8:03:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Cave Subject: BJCP musings After reading Karen Barella's comments yesterday and following some of the undercurrent of discontent over the last year, I feel that an opportunity has been lost and unfortunately, recent circumstances support this conclusion. That opportunity was to decide where we as judges wanted to take our growing group. Most of the associations that I am familiar with are fisheries associations. However, they all share a common thread: they are made up of a paid membership and which vote for a president and other elected officers. This elected council proposes a policy that is voted on by the membership, and either approved or rejected by that vote. Also, there usually is a staff, which remains outside of the politics of the organization and which carries out the administration of the association (which may include a newsletter) and implements those approved policies. The staff neither proposes nor approves policy. This arrangement is clearly different from that of the American Homebrewers Association. Without a good idea of how this association works, it is apparent to me that the officers are not elected, and that the staff proposes policy. Perhaps this is a matter which the home brewing community needs to address. Unfortunately, I've managed to let my AHA membership lapse so I have no say in these matters now. The administration of the BJCP and the AHA's decision to unilaterally withdraw and administer a new program should be of concern to BJCP judges. Alas, you have no say in these matters. You neither pay dues nor do you have a vote. However, you do have an AHA staff on the BJCC who are not BJCP certified and who do not solicit the views of the experienced judges. The nobler goal of this forum is not political, but rather to discuss matters of the judging of beers and beer styles. But, while you may not want to be political, there are those in the background who do, and who clearly have their own agenda which may be contrary to the greater good of you the judges. Perhaps it is time to decide how we as a group want to run things and whether we want to continue in the direction which the AHA seems to want to take us. Perhaps it is time to decide whether we need to follow our own course, and pay dues for the cost of doing so. In closing, I would challenge Karen Barella and James Spence to provide this group with a detailed list of the reasons for their decision and a list of the players involved. Without this, I find that I cannot make an informed decision as to whether their actions are justified. Yours very sincerely, Jim Cave, Certified Judge and Homebrewer. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 12:33:47 EST From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox) Subject: Independent BJCP Now that the AHA is out of the picture, I think it is time for the BJCP to become truly independent and democratic. To that end, I encourage you to contact your BJCC representatives and encourage them to elect or appoint member representatives immediately. I think that appointed representatives are a bit of an oxymoron, about as meaningful as the AHA Board of Advisors, but it is better than nothing. If the current BJCC can't figure out how to hold an election, then they should at least appoint some member 'representatives' who can. The time for pussy-footing and whining has passed, it is now time for action. If you feel strongly about this issue, please let the BJCC know. If you have any suggestions as to who you would like to see appointed, please let them know that too. Here are some phone numbers for the BJCC: AHA: John Dale voice: 908-369-3378 Russ Wigglesworth fax: 415-476-4690 email: rad_equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu HWBTA: Rob Bates fax: 702-329-8123 Gregg Smith fax: 208-524-6490 email: gsmithbeer at eworld.com I think the BJCP has suffered from two problems: AHA interference and lack of democracy. One problem has been solved for us, if we can't solve the other on our own then perhaps the BJCP should fade away as the AHA wishes. I have had the opportunity to review some BJCP financial statements and am convinced that there has been quite a bit of administrative waste. Since the BJCP has been self funding since 1991, the departure of the AHA should save us money as we switch to more cost-effective administration. In other words, the withdrawl of the AHA from the BJCP is really a blessing and may allow us to afford the expense of an election. I find it ironic that the AHA would claim to want a more democratic BJCP, but that is a rant for another day. I have faxed the BJCC and offered myself and JudgeNet as resources for increasing the democratization of the BJCP. Carpe Diem. - -- Chuck Cox SynchroSystems / Riverside Garage & Brewery - Cambridge, Mass. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 11:28:24 -0500 From: swh at ll.mit.edu (Sarah White) Subject: Points for Judging at Cider National Should I have been awarded any points for judging at the AHA National Cider competition? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 11:49:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Baier Subject: Re: JudgeNet Digest #956 (Feb 01, 1995) At the considerable risk of allowing my emotions to frame my response, I want to enter the fray early on the issue of the AHA jettisoning the BJCP. I think this action constitutes a reprehensible betrayal of current BJCP participants, and speaks volumes about the AHA's lack of commitment to its membership. Ms. Barela fails to attempt an explanation, and I trust that Russ Wigglesworth and other BJCC board members will illuminate us all with the 'real' story. >We regret that we were unable to resolve the differences in >philosophy and style that have held back the current BJCP. I am interested in, specifically, the nature of these differences in style and philosophy. I am also interested in exactly what constitutes being 'held back'. >The AHA is committed to making this transition a positive one. We have long >desired the BJCP to be educational, accessible, responsive and international in >scope. Because of this philosophy, we have decided to develop a new beer >evaluation program, one that represents the wide diversity of competitions and >judging in this country and the international community. Current BJCP judges >will be welcome to participate in the new program with equivalent judging >status. We also plan to form a new committee structure, elected from the >existing pool of BJCP judges. Our goal is to build the best program possible. So, let me get this straight. The AHA is not dropping the BJCP because it is too expensive, or not serving its purpose? I really need to know why starting a new, competing organization is a better option than making changes to an established one. A skeptic might conclude that Charlie P. just didn't have enough control over the BJCP. >A formal announcement with details about the transition will be mailed to all >judges at a later date. Good thing I have net access, or god only knows when they would have let me know. I really enjoy making and evaluating beer, and the fellowship those activities provide. I have increasingly less use for the AHA. I eagerly await other judges' reactions to this news. Tom Baier Tacoma, WA BAIER_T at SALT.PLU.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 01 Feb 95 15:27:59 EST From: "PATRICK N. BAKER" <74443.3040 at compuserve.com> Subject: AHA ANNOUNCEMENT OF CANCELLATION OF BJCP SPONSORSHIP The AHA has announced that they are canceling the June 1989 agreement between Scott Birdwell, former President of the HWBTA and Charlie Papazian, then President of the AHA, which inaugurated the Beer Judge Certification Program. Desmond Lundy, current HWBTA President, will make an official response upon his return home from vacation. As HWBTA Co-Director of the BJCP, I am making an interim statement on behalf of the HWBTA. It is the right of either sponsoring party to resolve to go no further with the BJCP at any time. The decision of the AHA to withdraw support must be seen as regrettable, particularly given the obvious desirability of keeping a program such as the BJCP independent of any single sponsoring entity, thereby preserving its integrity. Such a program under a single sponsorship is at risk of becoming a propaganda machine, or worse, a marketing tool. It has long been the position of the HWBTA that we would like to see the BJCP function as an independent entity, free from control of any organization, including our own. We continue to support the development of an independent BJCP. We urge that the involvement of the AHA in the remaining short time of their joint sponsorship of the BJCP to be constructive, not obstructive. We wish the AHA luck in developing a judge accreditation program that is both respected and cost effective. Under terms of the sponsoring agreement, AHA involvement in the BJCP will cease on April 18, 1995. We urge brewers and judges to continue their support for the BJCP. The BJCP will continue beer judge accreditation as usual. Both the HWBTA and the BJCP are working to achieve judge representation and judge control of the Beer Judge Certification Program. Patrick N. Baker BJCP Co-Director ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 15:46:11 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Liddil Subject: BJCP Program Changes I am adding my view to this post: % % Date: 31 Jan 95 18:54:24 EST % From: Karen Barela/AHA President <75250.1350 at compuserve.com> % Subject: AHA and the BJCP % % % January 31, 1995 % % % It is with regret that the American Homebrewers Association has found it % necessary to cancel joint sponsorship of the Beer Judge Certification Program. % The joint sponsorship of the program, formed in 1985 under an agreement with % the Home Wine and Beer Trade Association will no longer be in effect as of % April 19, 1995. I joined the AHA and get no say. I become a judge and don't get to decide what is happening. Lifes rough. % % % We sincerely hope that the cancellation of the BJCP will go smoothly during % this 90 day period. It is our intention to work carefully and conscientiously % with the HWBTA and BJCC so that the transition can be handled to the % satisfaction of the members of the BJCC, both former sponsoring organizations, % and BJCP judges. We regret that we were unable to resolve the differences in % philosophy and style that have held back the current BJCP. % We all hope the transition goes smoothly also. Others may disagree with you assessment that the differences have held back the program, i am sure. And it is all fine and good that the transition goes smoothly for all the committee people invovled, but what about all the judges. What are we chopped liver? We were never consulted about this change whcih was executed by the powers that be. Because of this philosophy, we have decided to develop a new beer % evaluation program, one that represents the wide diversity of competitions and % judging in this country and the international community. Current BJCP judges % will be welcome to participate in the new program with equivalent judging % status. We also plan to form a new committee structure, elected from the % existing pool of BJCP judges. Our goal is to build the best program possible. Excuse my attitude. But how is the AHA going to make the best judging program in the world when the magazine it puts out has information that is far from the best. And if we as judges decide to participate are we going to be black balled by the "other" judge program and competitions? People are going to be talking about the old days when it took so many points to get to a certain level and now it takes this and that. Isn't this going to get confusing with various "standards" Of course this may be good thing for the test format may change and the judge education process may improve. Particularly for certain styles :-) I just hope that you really do allow the judges to have input as to how the program is run and what changes should occur before the transition is complete. But of course this gives the AHA total control over everything, the sanctioned comps, the nationals, the test and all the homebrews what a concept :-) And only around 10% or less of the judges read the judgenet so we need tot get the word out Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 17:06:51 -0600 From: ddavison at earth.execpc.com (Dennis Davison) Subject: Re: AHA & BJCP As Judge Director for the first round of the Nationals in Chicago, I offered Karen my support 2 weeks ago. Current judges, just remember your status with the AHA's program will remain the same, including points. This was a big undertaking on The AHA's part especially when the severance date is just before the 1st round of the Nationals. On behalf of the other 1st round directors and myself, I hope this will not sway you from attending a 1st round judging site this spring. You will still accumulate experience points, in some form. It's up to the new committee to determine the new layout of the AHA's program. But I would assume that it will continue similiar to the BJCP from the start, since the machine is in place. However, it will grow and change over the next few years. - -- Dennis Davison ddavison at earth.execpc.com Milwaukee, WI Judge Director of the 1st Round of The AHA Nationals - Chicago,IL 1995 Organizer - Real Ale Fest - Chicago - October 13,14 1995 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 20:46:13 PST From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck) Subject: AFCHBC Competition announcement Second Annual America's Finest City Homebrew Competition Dear Brewer, Thank you for expressing an interest in AFCHC. Last year the contest was a success due to those of you who submitted over 170 entries and an outstanding group of judges. The second annual contest promises to be even better than the first. This year, all entries will be shipped and judged at the same site, therefore your beers will be less likely to be agitated once received. Like last year, we will be judging all AHA beverage styles including cider, mead, and sake. We will also send each entrant the judges score sheets for his or her entry, as we did in '94. The one area that we had a problem last year was in packaging. Many of the entries came in bottles other than those outlined in the AHA guidelines, and many of the beers had the bottle ID form taped to the bottle, rather than rubber banded. Please follow the AHA guidelines for bottle size, bottle color, and attachment of bottle identification forms. Ship beers to: AleSmith Brewing Company 9368 Cabot Drive San Diego, CA 92126 Entries will only be accepted February 27 through March 8, 1995. For those of you in San Diego, entries are being accepted at most of the homebrew supply stores. Entries will NOT be accepted in person at AleSmith Brewing Company, only via UPS. Two bottles per entry will be required, as there will be a best of show. The entry fee will be $6.00 for the first entry, and $4.00 each for each additional entry. Make check payable to QUAFF!!! The judging of the beers will be held Saturday, March 11, 1995 at AleSmith Brewing company. Due to the size of the room, and the concentration required by the judges, the judging will not be open to spectators. We are using the American Homebrewers Association rules, regulations, style descriptions and categories, so please refer to the Winter 1994 issue of Zymurgy magazine or call with questions. All AHA beverage categories will be accepted and judged. For those shipping their beers, please mark boxes with arrows pointing up, so we can store your beer right side up. Thanks again for your interest. Cheers, Skip Virgilio Ted Newcomb Paul Laskin Contest Organizer Judge Director Competition Registrar (619) 566-7061 (619)552-8293 (619)438-9332 Dion Hollenbeck (hollen at megatek.com) is your email contact ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************