From synchro!judge-request at uu6.psi.com Wed May 25 07:24:38 1994 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA08563 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at hendrix.itn.med.umich.edu); Wed, 25 May 94 03:37:25 -0400 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA20041 for ; Wed, 25 May 94 06:13:08 -0400 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA06890; 25 May 94 05:24:12 EDT (Wed) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9405250524.AA06890 at synchro.com> From: judge-request at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #768 (May 25, 1994) Date: 25 May 94 05:24:12 EDT (Wed) JudgeNet Digest #768 Wed 25 May 1994 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST Chuck Cox , publisher Michael Hall , archive administrator digest submissions to judge at synchro.com administrative requests to judge-request at synchro.com send rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP archive information in /pub/judge/README on cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov Published by SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: exams (Steve Piatz) Bock (Robert H. Reed) eisbock and exams (Spencer.W.Thomas) Responsible testing (Wolfe) BJCP, NHC Styles ("Rad Equipment") BJCP, NHC Styles Time:7:44 AM Date:5/24/94 freeze-concentrating (Chuck Wettergreen) Exams ("\" Dennis Davison \"") Reinheitsgebot Status (Randy M. Davis) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 08:11:03 -0500 (CDT) From: piatz at sdiv.cray.com (Steve Piatz) Subject: exams Michael Fetzer wrote: > > As far as the exams go, consider this folks: I doubt any professinal > testing organization returns the exams to the exam takers. E.g., do > contractors get their exam back when they get their license? Do lawyers get > their bar exam back? Etc. Do they? I don't know, but I doubt it. I suspect > if alll these organizations and the BJCP returned their exams, each one of > those exams would end up in court in this suehappy nation of ours, to try > to sue just one more point of someone. > When I took the Professional Engineer License Exam you simply received a noticed indicating that you passed or failed. However, for a small number of months after the scoring of the exam you could visit the state board's office and see your graded exam - something I never did, in fact I never used the license. The PE exam differs significantly from the BJCP exam in several ways. The PE license requires two 8 hour exams, an Engineer in Training exam and a PE exam. The first half of the Engineer in Training exam consists of a four hour exam with ~150 multi-discipline multiple guess questions. The second half consists of answering four essay questions selected from a larger set (I don't recall the number, probably a dozen or so), the exam taker picks which four question to answer. Having more than four questions allows the exam taker to select topics that they are most familiar with. The PE exam consists of two 4 hour sessions like the second halt of the EIT exam. The exams are open book, the questions are such that if you aren't familiar with the material the book isn't going to do you much good. The books allow you to concentrate on learning the concepts without memorizing the minute numerical constants and equations. Periodically, sets of past exam questions are released for use as study materials. It is my understanding that the author of a particular question will grade all answers to that question in the interest of having consistent scoring. The scoring of the exam becomes an issue because the same exame is used in nearly every state and is given on the same day in every state. Don't misunderstand my comments, I don't think the BJCP exam should or can be as rigorous as the PE exams. Many engineers depend on the PE license for their livelyhood, many consumers depend on the board certification of professionals for their safety. Remember, beer judging is our hobby. Steve Piatz Cray Research, Inc. piatz at cray.com 655F Lone Oak Drive 612-683-5268 Eagan, MN 55121 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 09:19:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert H. Reed Subject: Bock Michael Fetzer writes: > > If we're going to pigeon-hole beers, and on judings nail people that don't > fit into their particular style/substyle, then we have to at least > pigeonhole the spectrum continuously, no? What do I do with my o.g. 88 > bock? Dump it down the drain? Sure I can lie, tell you it was either > 91 > or < 83, but why? According to the 'fits to style' requirements, I cannot > hope to enter it in any category. As far as I'm aware, judges don't have access to your recipe sheet *while* they are judging your beer, except in unusual cases like spice beers, exotic meads, etc. What *is* significant about your beer is the category into which it is entered, not whether you used an ale yeast for Steam Beer, or if you used Centennial hops in a Classic English Pale Ale. I don't believe the typical judge could discern a 5 point specific gravity difference in a 1.090 beer, anyway. I think the relevant point in both Dopplebock and Eisbock is that there should be noticable alcohol. Rob Reed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 May 94 10:28:36 EDT From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu Subject: eisbock and exams Michael Fetzer writes: > If we're going to pigeon-hole beers, and on judings nail people that don't > fit into their particular style/substyle, then we have to at least > pigeonhole the spectrum continuously, no? Ok, I'm sticking my neck out here, without checking the references, but as I recall, German (Bavarian?) law (probably superceded and discarded by EC, but let's ignore that for now) sets down certain OG ranges for Bock and Doppelbock (I'm not sure about Eisbock). These ranges are NOT contiguous -- that is, there is a gap. Legally, brewers cannot call something "in between" either a Bock or a Doppelbock. Why should we be any different? In fact, the AHA ranges are *larger*. There are lots of cases of beers that don't fit into the style definition. For example, many homebrewers persist in making overly hoppy bocks. At the Chicago first round, a proposal was made (half, but only half, in jest) to add a new "bock" category: "Texas Bock" for these beers. Besides, we (as judges) don't see the recipe form, so we have to try to judge OG and alcohol by taste, and I *know* I can't determine that within 0.5%. Maybe 2 or 3% on a good day :-) =S ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 94 09:36 CST From: Subject: Responsible testing Michael Fetzer writes: <> Actually, American College Testing does return responses for some of its essay examinations. The policy aims to further educate the test taker by allowing him/her to see both how he/she performed on the test AND how that performance was evaluated in light of the scoring criteria. I would go so far as to say that it is irresponsible NOT to make the criteria for scoring public. Given the large pool of BJCP test questions, this does not pose the problem of examinees memorizing responses to all potential exam questions. In fact, supposing that the purpose of the exam is to insure that potential judges have the requisite knowledge of brewing, it would be beneficial to the program to allow answers to the questions to become public in an effort to educate beer judge candidates. I'd like to see graded exam responses returned to the test taker along with scorer comments showing the allocation of points for each item. As for going to court, I doubt that the BJCP would have much of a problem with examinees suing for losses incurred by failing the exam. Regardless, it would be nice to know that steps have been taken to insure that the exam is valid, reliable, and unbiased. I doubt that such steps have been taken. But, when people are being charged $50 or $30 for each administration (far more than the cost of producing, administering, and scoring the exam) and the exam is a requirement for certification on a national/international level, I feel that the BJCP has such a resposibility. Ed Wolfe wolfe at act-12.po.act.org ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 1994 08:22:08 -0800 From: "Rad Equipment" Subject: BJCP, NHC Styles Subject: BJCP, NHC Styles Time:7:44 AM Date:5/24/94 >What do I do with my o.g. 88 bock? Why are so many brewers so anal about these gravities? Who cares what the OG was?! No judge is going to be able to determine the OG of an entry simply by tasting it. If the final product fits the flavor and appearance profile of a category and you think its worth entering, enter it! The AHA isn't going to disqualify your entry because the OG on the recipe form is outside the guidelines. I also seriously doubt that the BATF is inspecting the files of homebrew competitions taking down the names of everyone who enters an eisbock! >would it be useful for judges to have "beer style amendments" >to their "titles"? This idea has been tossed about for several years now. The general opinion seems to be that it has merit and may be inevitable but that at present it is too difficult to implement. We rely on the judges to only sit at tables with styles that they are comfortable judging. Local organizers generally get to know who is good at what styles. >do contractors get their exam back when they get >their license? Do lawyers get their bar exam back? Etc. Professional exams like those cited do not qualify the taker by degrees. They are all or nothing exams. Once passed there is no need to take them again. Contractors who score high do not get to build skyscrapers while the low scorers only get to build single family tract homes. Lawyers do not get authorization to practise only certain parts of the law based on their scores at the bar. If we only passed those who achieved a score of 90 or above then the present exam format might be adequate. Since we are assigning ranks to the examinees based on their scores and experience (as reflected by their accumulated points) I believe we need to cover much more of the nuts and bolts material in each exam. A format which incorporates fill-in, multiple choice, essays, tastings, and covers at least 90% of the world's styles would better serve to evaluate the abilities of the examinees. This is, of course, just MHO. I do not speak as a BJCP official here. (Though I do continue to lobby to get the format changed) RW... Russ Wigglesworth (INTERNET: Rad_Equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu - CI$: 72300,61) UCSF Dept. of Radiology, San Francisco, CA (415) 476-3668 / Home (707) 769-0425 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 May 94 12:46:00 -0600 From: chuck.wettergreen at aquila.com (Chuck Wettergreen) Subject: freeze-concentrating In JudgeNet Digest #767 Michael Fetzer (mfetzer at ucsd.edu) wrote: JJ> Yes and no. As several sources have stated, it's illegal to freeze JJ> to concentrate, so let's for a moment pretend nobody does that, and I recently saw a *heated* discussion on freeze-concentrating on a BBS brewing conference (RIME or Ilink). The original poster wrote that he had called up the BATF and asked them if it was illegal to do this. The BATF Agent (actually a supervisor) that he talked to said that it was not illegal for a home brewer / winemaker to increase alcohol percentage by freezing. The poster then took it one more step. He said to the agent, "If I post this to the BBS, no one will believe me. Can I post your name and telephone number at the BATF so that people can call to confirm this?" The Agent said, "sure, no problem." The Agent's name and number were posted for anyone to call to confirm that it is legal. Chuck Chuck.Wettergreen at Aquila.com * RM 1.3 00946 * ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 17:29:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "\" Dennis Davison \"" Subject: Exams I don't think that it's as much getting the exams back as better feedback. After all in college, your in a class with a prof. In this class you get a feel for what the prof. wants in essay answers. (Especially his side of it, what he feels is very important). With the way the BJCP is now organized, are we supposed to put down every single detail on the 1st 5 questions then not have enough time to write anything on the last 5. The major problem is not knowing what's expected from an answer. Are there any exam scores on the net ? If so, could one of you write an answer to anyone of the exam questions on styles ? An answer that would receive full score. This would help all in knowing what is expected. Thanks Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 May 94 16:35:26 MDT From: Randy M. Davis Subject: Reinheitsgebot Status I noticed that the BJCP exam question regarding the Reinheitsgebot asks for the current status. I read in a book by Bill Yenne, called Beer Labels of the World, that the law is no longer legally binding since Germany was admitted to the European Community in 1987. Can anyone confirm or refute this for me? ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************