From synchro!judge-request at uu6.psi.com Sat May 21 07:37:49 1994 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA05394 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at hendrix.itn.med.umich.edu); Sat, 21 May 94 07:37:45 -0400 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA09468 for ; Sat, 21 May 94 06:58:58 -0400 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA21984; 21 May 94 05:24:02 EDT (Sat) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9405210524.AA21984 at synchro.com> From: judge-request at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #766 (May 21, 1994) Date: 21 May 94 05:24:02 EDT (Sat) JudgeNet Digest #766 Sat 21 May 1994 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST Chuck Cox , publisher Michael Hall , archive administrator digest submissions to judge at synchro.com administrative requests to judge-request at synchro.com send rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP archive information in /pub/judge/README on cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov Published by SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Exam format (Ed Hitchcock) Exam (Spencer.W.Thomas) Eisbock? (Aaron Birenboim) Eisbock Clarification ("James Spence/AHA/Colo.") Re: Exam ("\" Dennis Davison \"") exam (Brian P Lewis) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 11:12:17 -0300 From: Ed Hitchcock Subject: Exam format Dennis Davison wrote: >The only problem I see with open ended questions is At what point does >the exam taker receive full points for an answer? If he forgets to put >down finished ph of 3.0-3.5 does this knock his points down to 9. How can >open ended questions be graded fairly? What I'm getting at is that each >answer must contain certain items ? If the answer should have 15 points >made then if only 10 points are hit the taker gets a 6 or 7 points for >the answer. Now is there a master list for answers or is this up to the Typically with open ended questions worth 10 marks, one gets a mark for every valid point, and on many of these questions one could write heaps of information. One could write more than 10 marks worth, to ensure a full score, but that impinges on your time for other questions. It's a matter of balance. >people scoring the exams ? I know that 3 people score the exams. This >sounds like it's done by commity and whatever tickles there fancy on any >given day may effect a score from 78 to say 80. The same could (and is) said about beer judging. Is it arbitrary? No, though there is a little subjectivity involved. >Now that scores are critical with your level of judgeship I feel that >these questions asked should have answer sheets with key points. At that >point the exam will reflect a judges true knowledge. Typically, the people marking the exams are high level judges and already know the key points. Any extra points you make give you a better score, up to full marks per question. >14 to 15 minutes to think, formulate, and write an answer for each >question is ruff. If you go off on a side road you may never hit all that >they expect. 20 - 30 minutes per question would be fine but who wants a 6 >hour test ? It would be useless to have a test that everyone could get 90+ on the first time around, wouldn't it? I believe the stats are that 85% of examinees get at least 60% on the exam, qualifying them as judges. Seems reasonable to me. >Personally, all questions on the history and flavor descritions should be >removed to allow for more technical questions. What's the first thing >EVERY JUDGE does when he's assigned to judge a category ? He pulls out >the AHA style guidelines and re-reads it to make certain. Basically I >think that's all they really want for answers anyway ? Or is it ? If I'm >not a porter brewer should I be penelized for not knowing the history, >the same holds true for oktoberfest. The way the exam is layed out makes >me feel like I'm a certified beer historian more than a beer judge. The >exam should focus more on off flavors and ways to avoid them more than >this style has low to medium hop bitterness, low flavor and no aroma. >Heck we all refresh our memories and with close to 100 beer styles and >some of them so very similiar 1/2 the written exam centers on this. If you are not a Porter brewer and don't know the history of that beer, do you deserve to be a Master level judge? I think a broad range is good, with questions on style and technical aspects for every exam. I know from experience that this is not necessarily so, since the exam I took was weighted fairly heavily on technnical aspects (fortunately for me), while a friend who is a better brewer did not score as high when he took the exam because it was weighted more on the styles aspect. Another friend scored very high on a styles-weighted exam because that was his forte. Personally, I don't think you deserve even the opporunity to score 100% on the exam unless you know a shit-pot full about every aspect of beer, from styles to history to production techniques and ingredients to commercial examples in Botswana. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 May 94 10:59:34 EDT From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu Subject: Exam Of the three who grade the exam, one is the exam proctor, the other two have been doing it for years, and are pretty consistent by now. (Or so I've been told.) Grading essay exams is a learned skill, and you're not typically looking for "X number" of points to be made, but trying to assess the underlying depth of knowledge. A brief, succinct answer is usually sufficient; "padding" with extraneous or redundant details should not increase the score. I've certainly graded my share of long essays that nevertheless missed essential concepts -- the student figured that quantity might make up for quality. Clearly the BJCP test "penalizes" those otherwise good judges who have lousy test-taking skills. A friend has taken the test 3 times, and finally made it to 71 in his most recent attempt. He makes excellent beer, has a good knowledge of processes and styles, has about 15 experience points, but is just a lousy test taker. I don't agree with the "beer historian" notion. I didn't say anything about historical aspects on my exam, and I got well over 80. According to the comments, I was weak on commercial examples, and only "acceptable" on knowledge of the BJCP program. As adherence to style is at least half of what we look for when judging a beer, it's not unreasonable to have half the questions on style. The style guidelines are (necessarily) brief and sketchy. Witness the recent debate about Porter vs Stout styles. A judge should (but doesn't always, let's be realistic) have a deeper understanding of the styles than that. The only real way to get such an understanding (IMO) is to many drink (good) examples of the style, and to make it yourself, probably several times. And to judge it. As always, just my opinion. =S ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 08:15:05 -0700 From: mole at netcom.com (Aaron Birenboim) Subject: Eisbock? Is it really OK to even have an eisbock category? Is Eisbock not illegal to make in the US? If they have a category, they really should fudge the definition to avoid liability, no? aaron ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 94 11:30:51 EDT From: "James Spence/AHA/Colo." <70740.1107 at CompuServe.COM> Subject: Eisbock Clarification Michael Fetzer says: >I'm a bit confused about the AHA definition of Eisbock. The o.g. >requirements are such that there is a gap between doppelbock and eisbock, >and 'eis' is not mentioned in the verbal explanation of Eisbock. >It was my understanding that Eisbock is simply a freeze distilled >presumably doppelbock. Removing the ice concentrates the alcohol. >But, according to Charlie (and whoever helps him write the AHA definitions) >it's simply a bock with an o.g. higher than 92 or 95 (forget exact number). >This not only does not use ice distillation (why call it eisbock?) it also >leaves a gap between the upper end of doppelbock (o.g. 82) and the lower >end of eisbock. What do I call it if it had an o.g. of 87? Here's the AHA Eisbock definition: A stronger version of Doppelbock. Deep copper to black. Very alcoholic. Typically brewed by freezing a doppelbock and removing resulting ice to increase alcohol content. OG is 1.092-1.116 alc/vol is 8.6-14.4 Does that help clear things up? There is indeed a gap between doppel and eis, but it amounts to only about 0.5% alcohol. James ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 13:07:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "\" Dennis Davison \"" Subject: Re: Exam Spencer, when you get hit with additions to the list that say state the origin of x style or give the history of y style along with discuss & differentiate the style that's history. Your mention of a friend that has taken the exam 3 times and is knowledgable is a good case in point. Some of us have not taken exams for 20 years and not in the educational field. The way this exam is currently layed out it's next to impossible to really study. Were have I gone wrong on writing my answers? What have I missed or failed to mention? How can I study to take the next exam if I don't know what they are really looking for in the answers? All the feedback we get is Very good , Acceptable, good, poor in tech, style, etc. With this and the fact that the test was usually taken 3 months before you get your results, You have forgotten the questions at that point and forgotten the answers you gave. I would like to see the eassy's send back to the taker with some notes attached. Right now, we are all flying blind. I think the inception of the BJCP was fine and the way they initially set up the tests was OK, but I also feel it's time for a change. I have to thank the volunteers that keep the BJCP going. Dennis Davison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 May 94 16:48:05 MDT From: Brian P Lewis Subject: exam I share Mr. Davison's concerns re. open ended questions. Correctly including an agreed upon number of points in a response should get the responder full marks for any question. An answer key to the questions in the data bank IS the answer to consistent scoring of examinations. I also agree that the focus of the exam questions should be more on identifying beer flavours and aromas, both undesirable AND desirable, and how they can be avoided or enhanced in the brewing process. After all, that's what we're trying to do when we judge someone's entry in a competition and that's the kind of feedback that they are looking for. As judges, we need to be able to identify flavours and aromas in beer and relate them to the style that the maker is attempting to emulate. Since written descriptions of style are available at every competition, we should be concentrating on improving our perception of tastes and smells. Formal tastings of good commercial examples of a beer style are an excellent way to improve and I've got about 5 cases of beer that I'd be happy to share with anyone who wants to nail down once and for all in their minds what is meant by the term 'phenolic'. ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************