From synchro!judge-request at uu6.psi.com Tue May 3 07:01:25 1994 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA24976 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at hendrix.itn.med.umich.edu); Tue, 3 May 94 07:01:19 -0400 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA17457 for ; Tue, 3 May 94 06:45:36 -0400 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA03859; 3 May 94 05:21:41 EDT (Tue) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9405030521.AA03859 at synchro.com> From: judge-request at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #750 (May 03, 1994) Date: 3 May 94 05:21:41 EDT (Tue) JudgeNet Digest #750 Tue 03 May 1994 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST Chuck Cox , publisher Michael Hall , archive administrator digest submissions to judge at synchro.com administrative requests to judge-request at synchro.com send rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP archive information in /pub/judge/README on cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov Published by SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: RE: BJCP Exam (Spencer.W.Thomas) AHA 1st Round at Denver ("James Spence/AHA/Colo.") scoring sheet ("John L. Isenhour") Burce's Matrix (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965) Style Category Rearrangements ("Roger Deschner ") Oldenburg 1st Round ("\" Dennis Davison \"") ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 May 94 10:37:57 EDT From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu Subject: RE: BJCP Exam I have to agree about the emphasis on commercial beers. I don't mind the questions that ask for "commercial examples", because the style definitions originated from various commercial styles, so you really need to be familiar with the "originals" in a style to fairly judge it. But to ask for flavor profiles of specific beers goes beyond that, I think. As far as the all-grain recipe for STYLE X question goes, I don't think that it's at all out of line. This is one of the few questions on the exam that ask you to integrate all your knowledge of styles, ingredients, and processes. You can't control process very well in an extract recipe. For example, IMHO, a true Oktoberfest cannot be produced without a decoction mash (others will disagree). I don't know of any extracts that are produced this way. OG/FG control the flavor profile and alcohol content; it is not sufficient to specify one without the other. A beer with an OG of 1.060 could end up very sweet with a FG of 1.020, or very dry with an FG of 1.010, depending on the mash profile, yeast used, grains, etc. You'd end up with two very different beers. That said, I don't think I would have done nearly as well on the posted exam as I did on the one I took, which had less of an emphasis on individual commercial examples, and had questions about styles that I was more familiar with. It's much easier for me to compare and differentiate 4 wheat beer styles (e.g. Lambic, Weizen, Berliner Weisse, Wit) than 4 German lager styles (hmm... German Pilsener, Dortmunder Export, Oktoberfest, Bock). =S ------------------------------ Date: 02 May 94 11:42:35 EDT From: "James Spence/AHA/Colo." <70740.1107 at CompuServe.COM> Subject: AHA 1st Round at Denver We got it done. 683 Entries judged in 4 sessions over the weekend. It all went VERY smoothly, thanks to some terrific organization on the part of Steve Dempsey and Scott King. Results from the First Round should be mailed towards the end of May. Cheers, James Spence AHA Administrator ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 May 1994 10:51:51 CST From: "John L. Isenhour" Subject: scoring sheet Bruce writes: >strong tendency on the part of judges, particularly (I assume) those with >lesser experience), to count off-flavors too heavily relative to stylistic >adherence. ... >a respectable rating of around thirty -- because "only the hopping wasn't >true to style". Meanwhile, stylistically correct beers with major flaws were >being rated in the lower twenties. It seems more of a continuum than two seperate entities to me. I dont see how a beer can be stylistically correct if it contains a major flaw. If a lager has an enteric infection, but thats its 'only' problem, to me the defect throws it out of style - the brewer needs to work on basic techniques before worrying about perfecting recipe formulation. A beer that has a 'major flaw' (to me) is likely to be undrinkable, and if I can't even tolerate finishing a 2 oz sample (and has this ever happened too many times:-), how can it be 'in style'. I guess it depends on you definition of 'major flaw'. IMHO, john - -- John Isenhour renaissance scientist and AHA/HWBTA National Beer Judge home: john at hopduvel.chi.il.us work: isenhour at lambic.fnal.gov ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 10:51:08 -0500 From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965) Subject: Burce's Matrix Bruce proposes a matrix for guiding scoring at competitions... > Stylistic Adherence > Perfect Slightly Off Unrelated >O F None 35-50 25-34 20-24 >f l Minor 30-34 20-30 18-22 >f a Major 25-29 20-24 15-19 > v > o > r > s A good point of discussion. Should any beer get a zero? Or less than 10? A former member of the St. Louis Brews, known far and wide for his pithy sayings, once quipped that he could, um, pee a 15. And in my limited experience with the AHA comptetitions I know where he's coming from, that seems to be the case. If its liquid, has bubbles, and is some color besides purple is seems to be worth at least 15. Maybe my expectations are too high, but a beer with "major" off flavors will never be rated as "drinkable" by me no matter how stylistically "correct" it is. And so, back to the question I keep harping on: "What is the point of the AHA Competitions?" If we're first to decide whether a beer tastes good, and then decide whether it fits the style category, then we've got way too many style categories. If we're to decide first whether it fits a (narrow) category, and then decide whether it tastes good, then the score-sheet needs to be re-designed. Unfortunately, I've never seen a Statement of Goals or some such with respect to the competitions, and the score sheet itself sends mixed-signals about emphasis. t ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 14:07:39 CDT From: "Roger Deschner " Subject: Style Category Rearrangements Scott Brickham has proposed, and nobody else has yet reacted to, a plan of rearranging the Mixed Lager-Ale categories. He wants to change from focusing on geography to focusing on the beer itself. THIS IS GOOD. Scott proposed: >As usual, I'm late with a follow-up to the relevant posts, but >none of the suggestions so far seem unrealistic. There seems to >be a problem with what to do with the German-style ales, but the >following seems logical to me: > >18. Copper Lager-Ales: > > a) Duesseldorf-style altbier: same style definition, with the > bitterness changed to 30 to 50 IBUs. > b) California Common Beer > >23. Pale Lager-Ales: > > a) Cream Ale > b) American Wheat > c) Koelsch I like this idea at the general level. I think it could possibly improve judging AND BREWING of these styles. I also think that there is historical justification for these groupings. It has been widely suggested that the American Cream Ale style of beer, still popular in New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio, is a derivation of Kolsch. Brewers migrated to the U.S., carrying their recipes with them, and set up shop. Cut off from Cologne, and using American malts and hops, their beers inevitably drifted away from the Kolsch flavor profile. But the similarity remains, and even if we cannot pinpoint the historical connection, it is quite plausible. And American Wheat isn't too far off either - remember that Kolschbier can have a significant component of wheat malt. Scott Brickham's grouping of Dusseldorf Altbier and California Common is nothing less than inspired. I have said here before, when writing about the problems of a theoretical contest in Chickasha, Oklahoma, that one can at least get pointed in the right direction for Altbier by trying Anchor Steam, which you probably can get in Chickasha. There ARE similarities between the Dusseldorf and San Francisco brewing processes. I do not know if any historical connection can be drawn, but it is conceivable that, faced with a shortage of ice, the brewers of San Francisco (a city which still, today, has a significant German population) recalled the beers of Dusseldorf back in the Old Country as a practical way to brew clean beers with less ice than the more common Munich-style pure lagers. And from a purely practical point of view, this should make judging the beer easier. I have judged the Alt-Kolsch category any number of times, and have wound up just plain stumped when it came time to pick best-of-style. Is beer A a better Kolsch than beer B is an Alt? It's the kind of decision you have to make in best-of-show judging, but you shouldn't have to make it here, within a single category, between two widely varying styles. Believe it or not, the Kolsch seems to have an advantage here, because there is more familiarity with Kolsch than Alt. But Scott's proposal would clear this up, and these pairings would also be a first clue for the clueless as to what Kolsch and Dusseldorf Altbier are all about. Roger Deschner University of Illinois at Chicago R.Deschner at uic.edu =============== "Civilization was CAUSED by beer." ===================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 15:46:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "\" Dennis Davison \"" Subject: Oldenburg 1st Round I think I speak for Al Korzonas also on this. We had a great time and met some nice people. I want to compliment the Bloatarian's Brewing League on the fine job they did on their 1st First Round Regional of the National. Job well done guys. Next year if they do it again, I'd recommend that anyother judges out there attend. We found the Museum at Oldenburg exciting and well worth the trip. By the way, It doesn't look like anyone is sponsoring the score sheets this year. Dennis Davison exe01679 at char.vnet.net Exec-Pc, Milwaukee, Wi 414-789-4210 99 carboys of beer on the floor, 99 carboys of beer. If one of these carboys should happen to keg, then 98 carboys of beer on the floor. ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************