From synchro!judge-request at uu6.psi.com Thu Apr 7 06:35:23 1994 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA21511 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at hendrix.itn.med.umich.edu); Thu, 7 Apr 94 06:35:18 -0400 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA16667 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 94 06:00:30 -0400 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA14796; 7 Apr 94 05:14:58 EST (Thu) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-error at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9404070514.AA14796 at synchro.com> From: judge-request at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #731 (Apr 07, 1994) Date: 7 Apr 94 05:14:58 EST (Thu) JudgeNet Digest #731 Thu 07 Apr 1994 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST Chuck Cox , digest administrator Michael Hall , archive administrator digest submissions to judge at synchro.com administrative requests to judge-request at synchro.com send rank updates to the administrative address messages sent to the wrong address will be ignored FTP archive information in /pub/judge/README on cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov Sponsored by SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Re: Porters and Sarcasm (Jeff Frane) Porter and Style ("James Spence/AHA/Colo.") subscribe (Your Name) Re: Porter and Style (Chuck Cox) HWBTA Judging ("Norman Dickenson") ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 07:06:43 -0700 (PDT) From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane) Subject: Re: Porters and Sarcasm Sarcasm is catchy, although generally difficult to do well. I reiterate, differences are not the issue: the inability to define a beerstyle is the issue. The beerstyles that Ed Hitchcock threw into his attempt at sarcasm contain variations, but are definable. Except for Belgian Ales, which everyone seems to understand as a catch-all category. If we are willing to extend the same vagueness to porters, then fine, let's do it: "more or less dark beer that is (but not necessarily has to be) less thick than stout". - --Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 06 Apr 94 10:54:25 EDT From: "James Spence/AHA/Colo." <70740.1107 at CompuServe.COM> Subject: Porter and Style >*WARNING* this post contains sarcasm! >Porter can be brown or black, malty, roasted or sweet, bitter or not, hoppy >or not... So let's just get rid of it. Well stated, Ed. Just because someone, including commercial brewers, brews a beer and calls it a certain style does not mean it is that style. It is illogical to say that because a beer is outside of the style guidelines, that the style guidelines are incorrect. If we don't want to brew to style guidelines, that's just fine. But we shouldn't complain if we submit a beer that is outside of the guidelines and it doesn't win. By participating in a competition, any competition, we agree to abide by the rules of the competition. If we don't agree with the rules, we don't have to participate, or we can make reasonable and constructive suggestions for changing the rules. James ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 15:32:33 CDT From: belotfs0 at seraph1.sewanee.edu (Your Name) Subject: subscribe Subscribe to Beer discussion list Sharpe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 17:04:39 EST From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox) Subject: Re: Porter and Style James Spence/AHA/Colo. sez... > > It is illogical to say that because a beer is outside of the style guidelines, > that the style guidelines are incorrect. If we don't want to brew to style > guidelines, that's just fine. But we shouldn't complain if we submit a beer > that is outside of the guidelines and it doesn't win. By participating in a > competition, any competition, we agree to abide by the rules of the > competition. If we don't agree with the rules, we don't have to participate, or > we can make reasonable and constructive suggestions for changing the rules. > Perhaps an analogy is in order here... You can go out and build an incredible race car that is fast and safe, but unless you built it to conform to the rules and specifications of a specific class, you will not be able to compete with it. No one will deny that it is in fact a race car, but that alone does not entitle you to take it racing. The sanctioning bodies create certain classes based on safety and competitiveness, but they can't accomodate every conceivable car, it would be insane organizationally and financially. If you want to race, you have to conform to the classing structure. Similarly, beer competitions don't have to have a category for every conceivable beer. As long as the competition categories are clearly defined, it is the brewer's responsibility to produce a beer that conforms to the classing structure. A beer that does not fit an available category is no less of a beer, but it is not appropriate for that competition. - -- Chuck Cox SynchroSystems / Riverside Garage & Brewery - Cambridge, Mass. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 1994 09:22:11 U From: "Norman Dickenson" Subject: HWBTA Judging Subject: Time:8:22 AM OFFICE MEMO HWBTA Judging Date:3/31/94 Rick Garvin, in response to the *40+ Beer* post of the previous day, made mention of the 65 excellent judges at HWBTA. While I certainly do not want to take anything away from the satisfaction of having completed a large arduous competion, and the fact that most judges *ARE* excellent, I do, however feel compelled to mention my experience of the HWBTA competition. I was a silent co-brewer of several beers entered by a good friend. The scoresheets which were returned reflected that beers in first round flights were judged by only two persons. BOTH judges for two of the entries listed as their qualifications: APPRENTICE. Quibbling about my disagreement with the scores would be of little consequence and is not the point I am trying to make. The scoresheets provided little or no factual or evaluative feedback. Points were deducted in various evaluative areas in combination with positive comments such as "good effort". Many of the points given were supported by no comment whatsoever and certainly there was nothing constructive offered. For these two beers there was little to indicate that the judges were qualified to judge, and the educational component was missing. The hue and cry from exactly this type of issue resulted in the AHA revamping it's competiton format and instituting regional elimination rounds and is the antithisis of the promoted purpose of Sanction Competitions. The cost of entering competitons is too stiff for entrants not to be provided with solid, quality feedback. Perhaps the HWBTA Competiton has gotten too large to continue using the same judging format. It is quite difficult to gather large numbers of BJCP judges in one spot. Enough of my criticism! As a competition organizer, I salute all people with the courage and stamina to organize and run a competiton. It's tough enough without arm chair organizers firing salvos. -Norman- norman.dickenson at sonoma.edu ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************