From synchro!judge-request at uu6.psi.com Sat Feb 12 07:04:38 1994 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA27720 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at hendrix.itn.med.umich.edu); Sat, 12 Feb 94 07:04:32 -0500 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA19714 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 94 06:37:53 -0500 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA27904; 12 Feb 94 05:12:44 EST (Sat) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-request at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9402120512.AA27904 at synchro.com> From: judge-request at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #689 (Feb 12, 1994) Date: 12 Feb 94 05:12:44 EST (Sat) JudgeNet Digest #689 Sat 12 Feb 1994 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST Chuck Cox , digest administrator Michael Hall , archive administrator digest submissions ONLY to judge at synchro.com ALL administrative requests to judge-request at synchro.com FTP archive information in /pub/judge/README on cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov Sponsored by SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Alts (korz) Serious Beer Geek Trek ("Rad Equipment") Serious Beer Geek Trek Time:7:25 AM Date:2/11/94 Re: GABF judging (Jay Hersh) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Feb 94 10:41 CST From: korz at iepubj.att.com Subject: Alts I'd like to make a suggestion. Perhaps it would be possible to arrange a panel-led tasting of Alts at the Nationals in Denver this spring? Perhaps some kind soul would volunteer to organize the room, commission someone to bring a few cases of St. Stans from the west, some imported Alts from the east (perhaps there might be a way to tap-off 5 gallons into a Cornelius Keg and bring that), I could bring some Pinkus (Muenster -style Alt) and some DAB Dark to Denver (cause that's all we have around here), maybe a few brewers could try their luck at homebrewed versions... Then we all convene with our ears open and our tastebuds at the ready and listen to a panel of experienced Alt drinkers talk about each brew. It would be similar to Mike Sharp's Lambic tasting two years ago in Milwaukee. I'm ready to fork over $15 to learn about Alts (as long as I get reimbursed for the four cases of beer I bring). If you are interested in participating (tasting and/or bringing beer), please send me email and when we find a volunteer to run the thing I'll forward the list to that person. (I have way too many irons in the fire at this time to take this on also.) Furthermore, I think this should be an annual event. A different style each year. If we start filling 250seat banquet rooms, we can start shipping in Real Ale from Burton-on-Trent and casks of Faro from Lembeek!!! Al. korz at iepubj.att.com ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 1994 09:33:03 -0800 From: "Rad Equipment" Subject: Serious Beer Geek Trek Subject: Serious Beer Geek Trek Time:7:25 AM Date:2/11/94 Chuck was mentioning the lottery idea. I seem to remember a club in New Orleans sending a member to an Oktoberfest several years ago with the task of collecting beer for the club. The Malts talked about trying it one year but it never came together. RW... Russ Wigglesworth (INTERNET: Rad_Equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu - CI$: 72300,61) UCSF Dept. of Radiology, San Francisco, CA (415) 476-3668 / Home (707) 769-0425 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 15:51:45 EST From: Jay Hersh Subject: Re: GABF judging Well I should have been careful to place my comments in context and not assume that just because so little has changed with some AHA sponsored events that the same was true for the GABF. My observations regarding the GABF are several years old and based on information here it sounds like the nature of the manner in which they approach the judging task has changed somewhat. In my last trip (some 5 years ago) many breweries sent "representatives" who often were not the head brewer, and often not even a brewer. Many breweries sent no representative at all. The judging was done by panels chosen from these folks and other "trade experts" some whom knew what they were doing others not. As for the BJCP being promoted to industry I am under the impression that this has not always been the case. Or at least the industry has not been receptive to it. At the time of my last attendance I was (and still am) one of the top ranked BJUCP judges in the country. Upon offering my services I was (and ot my recollection Chuck Cox was also) snubbed and rather rudely, with aspersions cast upon our skills as judges and the validity of the BJCP. Perhaps I am spoiled and have a narrow view of the BJCP. Overall I feel that the quality of BJCP judges I have worked with is very good. Of course in our region there are many , many high level judges (the Hail to Ale competition boasted 5 Master judges in the room) and as an organizer of competitions here I have found problem judges, but the vast majority are good judges who are generally very conscientious about keeping to styles they feel most comfortable with (and with apologies to Scott Bickham as an organizer it is not always possible to take advantage of that as the assignment task is a very difficult one). So I would wonder what kind of acceptance the BJCP has found among professional brewers?? Any stats on how many BJCP judges number from among the professional ranks?? While the criteria for the GABF professional judging may outline specific criteria I would question how closely those criteria are observed by the judging panels. The available evidence shows a good number of beers that win in categories that I believe they are innapropriate for. As one who has judged more than a number of Best of Shows I can vouch for the fate of beers that make it through the judging rounds of homebrew competitions and are selected without heed to the criteria for the style they are entered as. Generally these beers are quickly eliminated from BOS, and of course the judges who forwarded them often become aware the criteria which cause their elimination when watching the BOS. Now this type of thing occuring at a homebrew competition is one thing since it is all in good fun and the ramifications of the shortcomings of the jduges skills are less widespread. However when a beer is awarded a medal in a style for which it clearly doesn't belong the credibility of the judging criteria and adherence to them is diminshed. While I don't recall the lists of winners from year ot year, or have specific examples at hand, I do recall that in each year I have seen more than a few beers earning awards of dubious merit in categories to which in my opinion I felt they clearly did not belong. As a last knock I'd also like ot challenge some of the "credentialism" which I feel so taints far too much of our society. I judged with a "industry expert" at the 2nd round AHA Nationals this year. While this individual possessed a skilled palette he certainly did not understand or appreciate the nature of the judging task we had in front of us. This person was on a panel with 4 other judges of varying experience and in every case ranked the beers in opposite order of how the BJCP judges ranked them. This was very problematic and I consulted with the organizer on several occasions to ascertain how to handle this situation (and in each case was encouraged ot trust my judgement and overrule this person). The nature of the conflict stemmed from the manner in which this person examined the beers. He judged the beer on a criteria that did not score the beer solely on the condition it was in when presented to us at the judging table. Rather he analyzed the beer and took into account all the underlying components of the beer. So what is wrong with this you ask??? Well we were judging Continental Lights. Many of the beers this person favored were clearly well brewed beers, however the condition they were in upon presentation to us was highly oxidized. Unfortunately almost all of the beers in this category had oxidized (most likely due to a combination of long lag between 1st and 2nd round judging and summer shipping) and while judging from an ex-post facto check (not per beer, but just in general) many beers that scored high in first rounds were scored poorly in this round. This particular judge however insisted in looking past the package/delivery defects of the beer to the quality of the brewing skill itself. I do not dispute that these were well brewed beers, it was quite evident. However at the time of the judging the condition they were in was non-optimal and the BJCP judges all judged the beer as it was presented to them at the table rather than to separate out the brewing skills from the beer as delivered. Was this wrong?? I say no. It is the aim of the BJCP that while feedback is a key goal the beer is judged as it is at the time of the judging, and that it is the beer itself and not the brewers skills as extrapalated from the beer that are being judged (or so I believe). So while the folks George cites are indeed impressive does that mean we take at face value their (or anyone's) judging skills?? I say no. George says there were 3 German Brewers, 2 from Belgium and 2 from the UK. So what?? George knows as well as I there are bad German brewers (recall the Dallas Brewing Co. products you had me help you taste on one visit??), and that brewing skill does not equal judging skill or vice versa (some of the best judges I know are lousy brewers). For each it is a matter of the time and effort expended to hone ones skills and that even a vast amount of experience in one area does not translate into broad skills in all. So as much as some may malign parts of the BJCP it does at least try to establish a certain level of minimum standard (and perhaps it would be worthy for the BJCP to develop a "core" curricula much as many schools use to define and insure that base level of skill) from which folks start from. This is more than I have seen (and would guess still exists) in the GABF judging where I am sure the skills sets can vary widely and the sole guage of them is some industry credentialism which are variable and perhaps even a bit haphazard. Apologies for my heresy JaH ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************