From synchro!judge-request at uu6.psi.com Fri Feb 11 06:28:02 1994 Received: from uu6.psi.com by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA07952 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at hendrix.itn.med.umich.edu); Fri, 11 Feb 94 06:27:56 -0500 Received: from synchro.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA15384 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 94 06:01:39 -0500 Received: by synchro.com (smail2.5) id AA23639; 11 Feb 94 05:11:51 EST (Fri) Reply-To: judge at synchro.com (JudgeNet) Errors-To: judge-request at synchro.com Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <9402110511.AA23639 at synchro.com> From: judge-request at synchro.com (JudgeNet Administrator) To: judge-recipients at synchro.com (JudgeNet Recipients) Subject: JudgeNet Digest #688 (Feb 11, 1994) Date: 11 Feb 94 05:11:51 EST (Fri) JudgeNet Digest #688 Fri 11 Feb 1994 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST Chuck Cox , digest administrator Michael Hall , archive administrator digest submissions ONLY to judge at synchro.com ALL administrative requests to judge-request at synchro.com FTP archive information in /pub/judge/README on cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov Sponsored by SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Re: Sweet stout (bickham) Re: lottery (Chuck Cox) Re: GABF Judges (Jim Busch) Re: GABF Judging (Steve Dempsey) Celis Pale Bock ("Robert H. Reed") Subscribe (sblack) GABF (George J Fix) St Stans Alt: A Defense (Bob Guerin) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 09:13:11 -0500 (EST) From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu Subject: Re: Sweet stout fjdobner at ihlpa.att.com writes: > In studying for the BJCP exam I was looking at the stout descriptions > and was wondering whether the Sweet Stout subcategory would contain > both oatmeal stouts and English stouts. For purposes of this discussion > assume that the oatmeal stout is a Samuel Smith's and the English stout > is a Mackeson. I think the English stout is a Sweet Stout but it is the > oatmeal stout that I am unsure of. Anybody know? Most oatmeal stouts are entered in the Specialty Beer category, since the oats are a unique fermetable ingredient. Last year we sent one to Portland from the East Regional, but I don't know how it fared. Another example of the sweet, or cream stout, is Watney's. You'll notice less emphasis on roasted character and more on a chocolatey creaminess. The sweet stout that placed second in Portland last year had no roasted barley, a little over one pound of chocolate malt, 2 pounds of crystal malt, and some black malt for color and to give a little roasted character. The rest of the grist was two row pale and the brewer also added 1.8# of lactose at the boil. Watney's and Mackeson are really made very differently. Mackesons pasterurized prematurely to leave the simple sugars unfermented (I don't know if sugar is added and then pasteurized, or if the fermentation is actually stopped, but the end result is the same). Watney's, on the other hand, is more traditional in the sense that the sweetness comes from dextrins that the yeast is unable to ferment, which IMHO makes for a more complex beer. Sam Adams also has a cream stout which I haven't tried. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 94 10:17:34 EST From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox) Subject: Re: lottery EDWARDP at INDY.NAVY.MIL sez... > > So, maybe BJCP ought to hold a raffle and send a few lucky winners to > Cologne, all expenses paid, to brush up on the style, and to handcarry home > a few samples... > I have heard of at least one homebrew club that holds a beer travel lottery. As I understand it, about 25 or 30 people each put up about $25 for a chance. The winner takes all the money and goes to somewhere in Europe for a couple of days and brings back 2 or 3 cases of assorted beers. Everyone gets together and has a party. Even the losers do OK, for $25 they get to try a variety of fresh furrin beer. Such a scheme would work particularly well here on the right coast because we can get round trip airfare to Europe for around $300 off-season. I have tried half-heartedly to setup such an event here, but have only found a few takers. The major concern I hear voiced is that the person making the trip must be a serious beer geek or the trip would be wasted. So you need to find 25 or so serious beer geeks. Hmmm, this list reaches over 200 serious beer geeks. - -- Chuck Cox SynchroSystems / Riverside Garage & Brewery - Cambridge, Mass. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 10:53:33 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Busch Subject: Re: GABF Judges > From: Jay Hersh > Subject: GABF judging (was Altbier) > > my impression of the GABF judging is that the standards and methods > used in it fall way short of those used in AHA/HWBTA sanctioned competitions. > To wit.... no program judges are used. The judges are all drawn from among > the brewers represented at the GABF. Now while there are many fine brewers > out there to my experience only a minority of them have any exposure > to a wide range of styles. Many of them don't even know that much about the > style of beer they are brewing as for them they have apprenticed and learned a > trade by being shown and then doing the mechanical skills of brewing to an established recipre with established procedures and their is no requirement for > them to have a broad mastery of styles (even the ones they brew) to perform > their job well. The converse is equally true, many many pro brewers know much more about beer constituants than BJCP judges. They also tend to have more of an open mind, ala "too light for a BarleyWine" , which can indeed be quite light when in the UK. Sweeping generalizations are just that, generalizations. All of the pro brewers in the DC area that I know are much more knowledgeable than the average BJCPers I have had experience with. Most are also fanatic beer hunters, evaluating beers wherever they go. Maybe the junior or assistant brewers fit the above description, but it is not true with most of the brewers I know. In fact, only two local brewers produce a commercial HefeWeizen, but all of the local pros know a good one when they try one, which is certainly more than what occured in last years Nationals. JB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 94 09:58:37 -0700 From: Steve Dempsey Subject: Re: GABF Judging In JudgeNet Digest #687 Jay Hersh writes: >my impression of the GABF judging is that the standards and methods >used in it fall way short of those used in AHA/HWBTA sanctioned competitions. >To wit.... no program judges are used. The judges are all drawn from among >the brewers represented at the GABF. For the past 3 years I've been a steward at the PPBT held during the two days before the festival. Judges are not simply drawn from attending brewers. Participation is by invitation only. Panels are constructed using brewers, industry professionals (QA people, other sensory evaluation specialists), and related trade experts (publicans, authors, etc). The last two years a couple of BJCP Master & Honorary Master judges were invited (Phil Fleming and Jim Homer). It's also worth noting that some of the pro brewers are BJCP judges (e.g. Master Brad Kraus), and that the BJCP is regularly promoted to industry (a BJCP exam is schduled at the IBS national micro & pub brewers conference in Portland this spring). >In my observations, this results in many beers being judged on a mostly >subjective scale and there is far less of the objectivity that the AHA/HWBTA >program endeavors to keep in place by their use of style definitions. There is an official program for the PPBT and for the festival, which is distributed to breweries and to judges. The public seldom ever sees this program, but it outlines the specific criteria that will be applied for the judging. These style criteria read very much like the style guidlines used for the AHA NHC. ================================ Engineering Network Services Steve Dempsey Colorado State University steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu Fort Collins, CO 80523 ================================ +1 303 491 0630 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 12:37:39 -0500 (EST) From: "Robert H. Reed" Subject: Celis Pale Bock Allen writes: > It is obvious from previous discussion that Widmer alt is not an alt. > Celis pale bock is not a bock. Sam Adams cranberry lambic is definitely > not a lambic. (Insert your favorite misnomer here.) > We must all be > very careful to evaluate a beer based on the style it is, not what some > unscrupulous and/or ignorant marketing geek tells us it is. In deference to the Celis brewery, I wanted to clarify that Celis Bock is brewed in the style of a Belgian Ale, and is labeled as a Bock because of its alcohol content. In light of this fact, it's a Texas Alcohol Control Board thing rather than a marketing thing. Rob Reed ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 94 11:44 CDT From: sblack at utxvm.cc.utexas.edu Subject: Subscribe SUBSCRIBE: sblack at utxvm.cc.utexas.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 94 15:17:17 -0600 From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix) Subject: GABF Jay Hersh is a good and valued friend of mine, so I am sure he will understand why I felt compelled to respond to the following comments made by him: >my impression of the GABF judging is that the standards and methods >used in it fall way short of those used in AHA/HWBTA sanctioned competitions. >To wit.... no program judges are used. The judges are all drawn from among >the brewers represented at the GABF. Now while there are many fine brewers >out there to my experience only a minority of them have any exposure >to a wide range of styles. Many of them don't even know that much about the >style of beer they are brewing as for them they have apprenticed and learned a >trade by being shown and then doing the mechanical skills of brewing to an >established recipre with established procedures and their is no requirement for >them to have a broad mastery of styles (even the ones they brew) to perform >their job well. >In my observations, this results in many beers being judged on a mostly >subjective scale and there is far less of the objectivity that the AHA/HWBTA >program endeavors to keep in place by their use of style definitions. >Others may disagree with my observations but this was my impression of the GABF >judging as it was held in years when I was in attendance (and offered my skills >to the judging only to be told that no BJCP judges could be used). Both Laurie and I were on the GABF panel this year, and we both found it to be a stimulating experience. We were invited to be on the panel next year, and we eagerly accepted. The technical level of the discussions that took place during the taste evaluation was very high. The following are a few examples of the type of people on the panel: 1. Bill Siebel and the two people who teach Siebel's flavor evaluation course. 2. Fred Eckhardt 3. Three German brewers, two from Belgium, and two from the UK. 4. Eric Warner 5. Finn Knudsen (He has a truly remarkable beer palate) 6. Terry Fahrendorf (She is a superb technician in brewing, but she also has broad interests in beer styles) Jay, in short I think you missed the target with this one! BTW we miss your visits to the Dallas area. Come again and I will buy the beer. George Fix ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 16:57:37 -0800 From: bguerin at orincon.com (Bob Guerin) Subject: St Stans Alt: A Defense In defense of my recent post about St Stans Alt, Michael Jackson states in his Pocket Guide to Beer that St Stans makes "Altbier in broadly the Dusseldorf style...". I won't argue whether it is or isn't in the Dusseldorf style, since I've not been to Dusseldorf and my recollection of St Stans Alt is a bit fuzzy. I also did not mean to imply that this Alt should be viewed as the sole basis for judging. IMHO, tasting St Stans, along with knowing the style description, is better than just knowing the style description alone. After all, do we not become better judges through tasting both good and poor examples of a style? Even if it is sweeter and less hoppy than it should be, there must be some similarities to the Dusseldorf style description. A good judge can make mental notes of both the similarities and differences, and use that in future judging of the style. BTW Jim, I was aware that Graffiti was an American Wheat (made with Alt yeast); I was trying to point out that St Stans Alt might possibly be available outside of CA. Bob Guerin (bguerin at orincon.com) Orincon Corporation ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************