JudgeNet Digest #687 Thu 10 Feb 1994 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST Chuck Cox , digest administrator Michael Hall , archive administrator digest submissions ONLY to judge at synchro.com ALL administrative requests to judge-request at synchro.com FTP archive information in /pub/judge/README on cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov Sponsored by SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Sweet Stout (fjdobner) Domestic Alt Example (Lowell Hart) St Stans, Sam Adams. Altbiers? ("Roger Deschner ") Re: Bay Area CA BJCP (Jimmy Patrick) RE: St. Stans ALt, NOT (Jim Busch) When is a kolsch not a kolsch? (Allen Ford) GABF judging (was Altbier) (Jay Hersh) alt and koelsch availability in the US (STROUD) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Feb 94 22:12 CST From: fjdobner at ihlpa.att.com Subject: Sweet Stout In studying for the BJCP exam I was looking at the stout descriptions and was wondering whether the Sweet Stout subcategory would contain both oatmeal stouts and English stouts. For purposes of this discussion assume that the oatmeal stout is a Samuel Smith's and the English stout is a Mackeson. I think the English stout is a Sweet Stout but it is the oatmeal stout that I am unsure of. Anybody know? Frank Dobner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 02:18:15 -0800 From: Lowell Hart Subject: Domestic Alt Example We here in the Great Central Valley have a domestic example of what is supposed to be an Alt: St. Stan's in Stockton, California. Now, I dunno if this is a good example of an Alt, but I do know that they have a very distinctive yeast. As in all their beers taste alike, seemingly regardless of recipe. St. Stan's has a sweetheart deal with DisneyWorld, so I guess you can get it there, but I don't know how widely they are distributed otherwise. Thought you'd want to know. (Now maybe we'll see if we have any readers from the Stanislas Area Assoc. of Zymurgists.) Lowell Hart San Joaquin WORThogs Raketenflugplatz, Fresno P.S: And yes, I'm the guy who posted the bit on HBD asking about Kolsch yeast, and then went to Bencomo's Homebrew Supply and saw that Wyeast now has one... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 06:52:24 CST From: "Roger Deschner " Subject: St Stans, Sam Adams. Altbiers? St. Stans is a "Meunster Altbier", similar to the widely-available imported Pinkus Alt. These are quite different from the Dussledorf style. Meunster Style Altbiers, such as St. Stans and Pinkus, are generally sweeter, not at all hoppy, and I do not believe they are made using the special Dusseldorf process of warm primary and cold secondary fermentation. It is actually not surprising that the same low-attenuating yeast is used. Many German brewers label their ordinary dark offering "Alt". Sam Adams an Alt? A number of American breweries have entered their beers into the Alt category at G.A.B.F., probably because it was empty and they figured they had a better chance of winning a medal. (What? Jim Koch do THAT just to win a medal?) Alaskan Amber and Old Detroit come to mind, also medal winners at GABF as altbiers - two nice beers, but not real Dussledorf Style Altbier. Are these beers brewed by the Dusseldorf Process? Are we going to let the opportunistic quest for GABF medals redefine a venerable category? Oh Puleeeeeeeeeease! I do want to point out that the AHA Style Guldelines specifically state "Dusseldorf Style" in the name of the category. Someday it may be appropriate to create subcategories within Altbier for Dusseldorf and Meunster styles, but that's another discussion to be left for another day, along with all those discussions about how AHA guidelines do or do not cover every conceivable type of beer... (You've heard it all before and I'm not in the mood to rehash it.) Until then, we in AHA/BJCP are talking only about the outstanding Altbiers of Dusseldorf. You know, the ones nobody has tasted. Roger Deschner University of Illinois at Chicago R.Deschner at uic.edu =========My spellchecker wanted to change "hoppy" to "happy".============ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 08:31:03 -0800 (PST) From: jimmyp at netcom.com (Jimmy Patrick) Subject: Re: Bay Area CA BJCP A couple of issues ago Jeremy Bergstrom (?) (sorry) mentioned the lack of bay area exams this year. Apparently there was some more interest in a bay area exam. A few issues later someone (again, sorry) said that if there were enough interest.. they could put together an exam. Count me in as interested in the next Bay Area exam. Jimmy Patrick --- Apprentice ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 11:54:12 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Busch Subject: RE: St. Stans ALt, NOT > From: bguerin at orincon.com (Bob Guerin) > Subject: Alt Availability > > Roger Deschner stated in JND #685 that: > > > Unfortunately, alt is completely unavailable in the United States ... > > That might be true for imported German Alts, but St. Stans does make Alt. Its not a true German Alt. > I believe that all of their beers are made with Alt yeast. They are > available here in California, and I spotted some St. Stans Graffiti '93 > recently when I was back in the DC area. Graffiti is an American Wheat. > > Therefore, one need not have a used airline ticket to Germany to be able to > judge Alt. Granted, I don't know whether St Stans fits the classic Alt > style or not, but at least it's something better to go on than a > description in a book. No its not! A written accurate description is much better than a poor example of style. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 11:14:04 -0600 (CST) From: Allen Ford Subject: When is a kolsch not a kolsch? In JudgeNet Digest #686, Bob Guerin writes: > Granted, I don't know whether St Stans fits the classic Alt > style or not, but at least it's something better to go on than a > description in a book. If St Stans does not truly fit the style (Has anyone here tasted both St Stans alt and been to Dusseldorf?), then it's much worse than relying on a book's description, assuming that the description in the book is accurate. In order to fairly judge a beer, one must know with certainty what the style tastes like. Such knowledge can come only through tasting and understanding what one is tasting. It is obvious from previous discussion that Widmer alt is not an alt. Celis pale bock is not a bock. Sam Adams cranberry lambic is definitely not a lambic. (Insert your favorite misnomer here.) None of these beers tell you anything about the style they are named after. We must all be very careful to evaluate a beer based on the style it is, not what some unscrupulous and/or ignorant marketing geek tells us it is. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Feb 1994 12:33:45 EST From: Jay Hersh Subject: GABF judging (was Altbier) my impression of the GABF judging is that the standards and methods used in it fall way short of those used in AHA/HWBTA sanctioned competitions. To wit.... no program judges are used. The judges are all drawn from among the brewers represented at the GABF. Now while there are many fine brewers out there to my experience only a minority of them have any exposure to a wide range of styles. Many of them don't even know that much about the style of beer they are brewing as for them they have apprenticed and learned a trade by being shown and then doing the mechanical skills of brewing to an established recipre with established procedures and their is no requirement for them to have a broad mastery of styles (even the ones they brew) to perform their job well. In my observations, this results in many beers being judged on a mostly subjective scale and there is far less of the objectivity that the AHA/HWBTA program endeavors to keep in place by their use of style definitions. Others may disagree with my observations but this was my impression of the GABF judging as it was held in years when I was in attendance (and offered my skills to the judging only to be told that no BJCP judges could be used). JaH ------------------------------ Date: 09 Feb 1994 14:10:05 -0500 (EST) From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com Subject: alt and koelsch availability in the US Roger Deschner stated in JND #685 that: > Unfortunately, alt is completely unavailable in the United States ... Strictly speaking, this is not true. Although there is nothing equivalent to the Dusseldorf brewpub altbiers in this country, I know of three reasonable examples that are currently in the US market. 1) Grolsch Autumn amber. This came into the Boston market last fall. Someone handed it to me at a club meeting. I looked at it, thought, "Hmmmm, so Grolsch is getting into the Oktoberfest market, eh?", then had a taste and thought, "Jesus, this is one bitter O'Fest! What are the Grolsch drinkers going to think about _this_ one?" It wasn't until a week or two later at a more structured tasting that I _really_ tasted this beer and had a good look at the label. It's a smooth, aromatic top-fermented coppery ale (cold-conditioned) with lots of hop flavor and hop bitterness. OK, this isn't a world classic, but it certainly is broadly in the style of a Dusseldorf altbier, comparable to some of the bigger brewers like Gatzweiler or Diebels. I think that it is as good a version as we get in this country (and it is not be sneered at). 2) Schlosser Another of the big Dusseldorf altbier brewers, this beer has been sporadically available on tap in Boston for the last half year, and I've seen ads for it in the Washington DC area. Unfortunately the few glasses of it that I've tasted have not been in the best of condition, but it _is_ a German altbier. 3) DAB Dark Yep, it's labeled 'Dark', but the brewery claims that it is top-fermented and is an altbier. I'd have to agree. It's maltier and somewhat less bitter than I'd expect, but fresh examples of this beer are still instructive of the style. Available in this country both in bottles and on draft, but not always in the best shape. I've had some very fresh and tasty glasses of DAB Dark on draft at the Hofbrau Haus in W. Springfield, MA. Worth seeking out if you can't afford the airfare to Germany :-). ** As for Kolsch, I've not seen a Koln-brewed version in the US since Kuppers was in Boston back in the mid-80's. At the time it was the only Kolsch that I had ever tasted and I thought it was wonderful. Subsequent trips to Koln (and the requisite visits to the house breweries) have changed my opinion! One of the best beer-soaked memories I have is of standing in the anteroom of PJFruh's, grabbing glass after glass of kolsch (freshly drawn, from wooden casks) from the blue-aproned waiters they scurried by. Ahhhhhh...... No example that I've tasted that has been commercially brewed in the US has ever been very close to style. ** To Phil Seitz - As much as I love Belgium, I'd have to agree with Jim. Next time you're over there, take a short drive to the Rhineland and spend a couple of days in Koln/Dusseldorf/Dortmund. As a beer lover, you won't regret it. Steve Stroud ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************