JudgeNet Digest #686 Wed 09 Feb 1994 THE BEER JUDGE DIGEST Chuck Cox , digest administrator Michael Hall , archive administrator digest submissions ONLY to judge at synchro.com ALL administrative requests to judge-request at synchro.com FTP archive information in /pub/judge/README on cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov Sponsored by SynchroSystems and the Riverside Garage & Brewery Contents: Altbier (Ed Hitchcock) exam advice (btalk) Re: Alt and Koelsch (bickham) Roger's Ranting (Jeff Frane) Alt Availability (Bob Guerin) True knowledge (Allen Ford) "Kolsch & Alt Problem" ("Norman Dickenson") Kolsch (EDWARDP) BJCP Tests ("Norman Dickenson") Re: JudgeNet Digest #683 (Feb 06, 1994) (Jay Hersh) Re: Judging, of course! (Jim Busch) Re: Kolsch (Jim Busch) Re: JudgeNet Digest #683 (Feb 06, 1994) (JOHN ELLIOTT-INFO SYSTEMS X6749) BJCP exam at Bluebonnet? ("Bill Kitch") ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 08 Feb 1994 10:10:08 -0400 From: Ed Hitchcock Subject: Altbier Get your flamethrowers ready, and set phasers on setting 18... Roger Deschner made some excellent points in todays digest. However, I seem to recall from the depths of this messy hard drive I call long-term memory that the Alt catagory at the GABF was won* by none other than Sam Adams Boston Ale. Though this may not be a GOOD example of the style, at least it is a beer that has been tasted by most BJCP judges. *Don't ask me what year, this is only a vague recollection. Even if it in fact did not WIN this catagory, it was at least ENTERED in this catagory, which should be good enough to label it thus. ____________ Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. | Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. | Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 94 09:48:30 EST From: btalk at aol.com Subject: exam advice I plan on taking 'the exam' this April. I have a copy of th e study guide, but wonder if there is anything else I should use/do/know about. Any advice is welcome. Bob Talkiewicz, Binghamton , NY ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 10:42:33 -0500 (EST) From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu Subject: Re: Alt and Koelsch Roger Deschner writes: > > A while back, I quipped, "Try to get a Belgian beer in Chickasha, > Oklahoma." The problem has now been brought closer to home for all of us > by Phillip R. Seitz: "I for one know of no imported examples of this > style , and only know of two people who've actually gone > to Dusseldorf to check out the alts. I don't know of ANYBODY who's > actually spent time drinking authentic kolsch." Well, I guess you don't actually *know* me, but I've spent 2+ months in the Duesseldorf area on two separate occasions drinking every Alt, Koelsch and Dortmunder Export I could get my hands on. To really appreciate those styles, you do have to get them fresh from the source - for example the bottled Zum Uerige seemed to have less complexity. I've tried everything short of begging to be able to judge these styles at the past two East Coast Regionals for the AHA Nationals, but I usually get something like the "Specialty" category. Maybe we should put together beer judging resumes so that organizers have a little more background on us. Scott Bickham National Judge :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 06:58:47 -0800 (PST) From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane) Subject: Roger's Ranting Roger Deschner (sp?) ranted at some length about alts and kolschbiers, and I say: Huzza! I tend to forget alts as an example, when *I* rant about the unwieldly and unsupportable profusion of beerstyles being judged at competitions -- particularly the NHC. The closest I've ever gotten to Zum Uerige was drinking a bottle filled at the pub a couple of nights previously, which a friend brought back from Dusseldorf. Even several steps removed from Dusseldorf, it was a truly incredible beer -- and it's easy to see how Roger became enamored. It's also clear to me that none of the homebrewed alts I've tasted share much in common with what's being brewed over there. Or that American homebrew judges, for the most part, have a clue about it -- and even less, certainly, do they have a clue about kolschbier. Personally, I've found *one* bottle of what purported to be kolsch, in a California Liquor Barn, and I have the commentary of my traveling friend mentioned above, who tasted it in Cologne and said it was boring. So what are we doing judging altbiers? (And Roger is likewise correct in reference to Widmer Alt. When it originally appeared here it was a MONSTER beer -- huge malt and intensely bitter, as I remember the Zum Uerige sample. For unknown reasons they have mainstreamed it -- unknown because the beer doesn't sell worth a damn anyway; Widmer owes their tremendous success to their "hefeweizen" (which is another story). There had been some talk of restoring the original recipe for alt served at the now-indefinitely-postponed beer cellar, but really! Wouldn't it make mor sense to capture a real hard-core of drinkers than the occasional "oh, well, they're out of Blue Heron" drinkers?) Sorry, digressed badly there. - --Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 08:02:24 -0800 From: bguerin at orincon.com (Bob Guerin) Subject: Alt Availability Roger Deschner stated in JND #685 that: > Unfortunately, alt is completely unavailable in the United States ... That might be true for imported German Alts, but St. Stans does make Alt. I believe that all of their beers are made with Alt yeast. They are available here in California, and I spotted some St. Stans Graffiti '93 recently when I was back in the DC area. Therefore, one need not have a used airline ticket to Germany to be able to judge Alt. Granted, I don't know whether St Stans fits the classic Alt style or not, but at least it's something better to go on than a description in a book. Bob Guerin (bguerin at orincon.com) Orincon Corporation ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 09:29:25 -0600 (CST) From: Allen Ford Subject: True knowledge In JudgeNet #685 Roger Deschner writes: > If we really want to pursue the Style Certification idea, (oops! I said > it! Heave those cream pies. Yes, I have spoken against Style > Certification right here.) then a used airline ticket to Germany should > be a prerequisite to being certified in Alt and Kolsch. I can't see > certifying someone who has not tasted the style, and if you have never > been there, then you cannot have tasted these styles. I, too, have been to the Rhineland and fallen in love with the top-fermented beers there. I wholeheartedly concur with Roger's comments. However, I would carry such a statement a bit further in that I feel it is valid for almost all beer styles. If you have not been to Burton-on-Trent, you have never tasted a true English pale ale. If you have not been to Dublin, you don't know what an Irish stout really tastes like. The versions of these beers that are available in other places are not the same as at their points of origin, whether due to intentional recipe changes by the brewery or simply as a result of the damaging vagaries of transport. This is true to varying degrees for almost all world styles of beer. Those of us who have been fortunate enough to travel beery parts of the world have several options. Two come immediately to mind: 1)get worked up and butt heads with ignorant judges and poor AHA style descriptions, or 2)kick back and take a long swig of our homebrewed Kolsch, dream of our next "research" sabbaticals, and not even try to wipe the grins off our faces. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 1994 08:50:48 -0500 From: "Norman Dickenson" Subject: "Kolsch & Alt Problem" Subject: Time:8:11 AM OFFICE MEMO "Kolsch & Alt Problem" Date:2/8/94 Roger Deschner recently discussed the non-availability of the Alt and kilsch styles in amerika. Having won a first place for a Kolsch in the AHA a couple of years ago without ever having tasted a sample of the true product, I am amused and concerned about judges whose sole experience with some styles is just reading about them, or (even worse) drinking some stale eight month old import stored at 80 degrees (remember when all Pilsner Urquel's were light struck and skunky?). I have not quick solutions to a vexing problem, but remain optimistic that if a market nich is empty, eventually someone will fill it. In the meantime we all should watch for opportunities to taste rare styles. Sooooo......in that vein, those of you lucky to live in Northern California should check out THE SUDWERK a brewpub in Davis, CA which produces authentic German style beers and has a German brewmaster. I stopped by last week and they had a (I'm not affiliated, just an admirer) Kolsch on draft. It was pale golden in color, fairly dry, slightly fruity, and had a lot of finesse. I can't say that it was a great example of the style, because I don't know. However, current thought by some writers is that if a beer is called/labeled a certain style, then that is what it is. (Are Jim Koch's products included in this caveat? Not!!!) -Norman- norman.dickenson at sonoma.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 94 13:58:35 EST From: EDWARDP at INDY.NAVY.MIL Subject: Kolsch FWIW, Jackson's new book mentions Broad Ripple Brewing Co's version of kolsch as as "full-bodied example of the style", or words similar. The brewer who brought that recipe to BRBC, Greg Emig, now runs his own joint - Lafayette Brewing Co - in Lafayette, Ind. Usually a darn tasty, clean, crisp beer. Authentic?? who knows? MJ tasted some a couple of years back at GABF and thought it was worth a mention. So, maybe BJCP ought to hold a raffle and send a few lucky winners to Cologne, all expenses paid, to brush up on the style, and to handcarry home a few samples... -- Paul E. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 1994 09:20:29 -0500 From: "Norman Dickenson" Subject: BJCP Tests Subject: Time:8:35 AM OFFICE MEMO BJCP Tests Date:2/7/94 To expand on a thread by Jeremy Bergsman, I support his feeling that the opportunities to take the BJCP test are rather limited. Granted that the effort to put one on is time comsuming, HOWEVER, the proctors are amply compensated financially for their efforts. Having been the organizer of a substantial competition for the past two years, I can certify that obtaining sufficient program judges to adequately "person" all the tables and flights required of a larger competition is becoming very, very difficult. I have issued blanket invitations to all judges within one day's drive (about 150) in the hopes of getting 30 to accept. Invariably several will not show up requiring the use of apprentices. This waters down the quality of the judging. I feel that entrants deserve scoresheets from three *qualified* judges in return for their money. I also do not abide by the practice of using apprentice judges to do elimination round screening (sometimes without even completing a scoresheet ) if their scoresheets are the only feedback an entrant gets. With the proliferation of competitions wanting qualified judges, one must pick and choose which events to support. I think the combined BJCP Committee should explore ways to increase the number of tests. Finally, Jeremy references the extensive list of apprentice digest subscribers. I know that myself and a number of other people on that list are long time BJCP participants with test passing rankings dispite being referenced as apprentices . -Norman- norman.dickenson at sonoma.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 1994 12:03:06 EST From: Jay Hersh Subject: Re: JudgeNet Digest #683 (Feb 06, 1994) Phillip Seitz says: >Someone (Russ Wigglesworth?) responded that if you can't judge these >common styles you probably shouldn't pass anyway. I must say I agree, >but let me ask this: how many people on the list would pass, or pass at >the same level, if there had been an intense focus on Alt and Kolsch? >I for one know of no imported examples of this style, and only know >of two people who've actually gone to Dusseldorf to check out the alts. >I don't know of ANYBODY who's actually spent time drinking authentic kolsch. Koelsch and Alt are as you say regional styles. This would hardly qualify them as *common* which was my original contention. Anyway followup mail on this has shown that the test takers objections/concerns stemmed from the lack of broadness of testing on common styles and not any concern of being burned by not knowing the small group of common ones presented (ie OK so the test tested knowledge of Pils and Brown Ales, but what about Wheat and Stout and Porter etc., etc...) JaH ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 10:10:42 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Busch Subject: Re: Judging, of course! > From: btg!rgarvin at uunet.uu.net (Rick Garvin (703-761-6630)) ^^^^^ apprentice judge!!! :-) > Subject: Re: unfair exam > > other garbage). The Trippel was TOO fusel. The Weizen was a two time > ribbon winner. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^! Yeah, but where did the ribbons come from? And didnt it finish less than third the next month :-) :-) > > From: John DeCarlo > Subject: Re: Exam Unfairness and Exam > > repetition. (BTW, I thought there was too much emphasis on Germany, so > there you are.) Impossible! > > That isn't *my* understanding (and I hope I got this part right on the > exam). It is intended to encourage homebrewers by having judges who can > give constructive and hopefully uniform and well-informed feedback. > > Thus, a judge should be able to tell a brewer what the defect detected > was and what may have caused it and how it could be corrected. This is the main thing that I learned from the exam, it wasnt good enough to identify beer constituants, you had to start explaining the causes of Diacetyl. This was certainly a suprise to me, but hey, if thats what the BJCP wants, now I know. Its just I didnt score well going into the exam, since I could care less about " how a brewer advances to National in the the BJCP", and the "how is DMS produced in a lager". Now I know what they want. > > From: korz at iepubj.att.com > Subject: exam coverage/exam fairness > > Typical questions may include (just off the top of my head): > > Q: Most commercial Bohemian Pilsners' bitterness falls in the range: > > [ ] 15 - 30 IBU [ ] 30 - 45 IBU [ ] 22 - 35 IBU [ ] 42 - 57 IBU Jeezz, whats the answer Al? Seems like "most" could be b-d (35-42). > > Q: The primary difference(s) between Mild and Engilsh Brown is/are: > > [ ] OG only [ ] IBUs only [ ] color [ ] color and OG [ ] OG and IBUs Now your getting too hard! Best, Jim Busch ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 10:21:44 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Busch Subject: Re: Kolsch > From: "Phillip R. Seitz" > > I don't know of ANYBODY who's actually spent time drinking authentic kolsch. Well, you didnt realize it, Phil, but you do, me! I realize you turn off at the hint of Germany, but we should do Koln some day! Jim DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER! ------------------------------ Date: 07 Feb 1994 12:17 -0600 (CST) From: JOHN ELLIOTT-INFO SYSTEMS X6749 Subject: Re: JudgeNet Digest #683 (Feb 06, 1994) UNSUBSCRIBE ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 16:54:46 -0600 (CST) From: "Bill Kitch" Subject: BJCP exam at Bluebonnet? Do any of you Dallas/Ft. Worth folks know if the BCJP exam will be offered in conjuction with the Bluebonnet Competition? I know I asked this question a month or so ago. If it was answered I didn't see the answer. Sante' WAK ------------------------------ End of JudgeNet Digest ************************