From JudgeNet Wed Oct 6 04:43:42 1993 From: nfarrell at ppco.com (Norman Farrell) Subject: Place awards, true to style I would like to interrupt all the recent talk of judge qualifications with a question about awarding 1st, 2nd and 3rd place in categories where "most" of the entries IMHO were "not according to style". After judging 2nd round inthe Wheat category at Nationals, I may have had very high expectations. Virtually all the entries were clearly entered in the right category. At another regional competition, however, out of 15 entries there were at most 2 that were "in the right category", IMHO. The other judges at the table were in agreement. 1st place was fairly clear but there was much discussion over 2nd and 3rd. The top several beers were all good but most should have (may have been for all I know) entered in other categories. Should we be pressured to award 2nd and 3rd in such cases? What about 1st if there were no "real German style wheat beers"? The top several beers were good beers indeed and were all well crafted. They just didn't happen to be wheat beers. To place or not to place......? Norman Farrell (nfarrell at ppco.com) -------------------------------------- From JudgeNet Wed Oct 6 23:48:25 1993 From: John DeCarlo Subject: Re: Place awards, true to style >The top several beers were all >good but most should have (may have been for all I know) entered in other >categories. Should we be pressured to award 2nd and 3rd in such cases? >What about 1st if there were no "real German style wheat beers"? I have only been involved in one competition myself, but the instructions given the judges were quite clear that if the beer wasn't the right style, it could only get so many points (like 20 out of 50, I believe). This seems like a good and sensible approach. Then, I would feel very comfortable requiring an award winner to get more than that number of points. John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own Fidonet: 1:109/131 Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org If I were you, who would be reading this sentence? -------------------------------------- From JudgeNet Wed Oct 6 23:48:25 1993 From: "Robert H. Reed" Subject: Awarding Undeserving Beers Norman writes: > Should we be pressured to award 2nd and 3rd in such cases? > What about 1st if there were no "real German style wheat beers"? > > The top several beers were good beers indeed and were all well crafted. They > just didn't happen to be wheat beers. > Most regional cometitions that I have judged in require an entry to score a minimum of _25_ before it is elgible to place. I have judged in small regionals where only 1st and 2nd place beers were awarded ribbons. In one instance, another judge and I only awarded a 1st place as the other beers did not measure up. This is possible in some categories in smaller competitions. In the instance of a very well made beer, it is possible to score a 25 or better, unless you have entered a Kolsch in the Barley Wine category. I have never been forced by a competition organizer to 'place' beers that did not deserve an award. - -- - -- Rob Reed --------------- Internet: rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com -- - -- IC Design Center -------------- Delco Electronics Corporation -- -------------------------------------- From JudgeNet Wed Oct 6 23:48:25 1993 From: mlh at cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov (Michael L. Hall) Subject: Re: Place awards, true to style Norman Farrell asks if awards should be given when beers are the best in the category, but still not true to style. One way to get around this problem is to only give awards to beers that score over a predetermined level. The organizers of the NM State Fair competition do this, and it seems to have worked well, IMHO. I think their cut-off is a score of 30. I think that it only makes since not to award a win, place or show to a beer that straggled around the track and dropped its rider, to borrow a metaphor. Of course, this isn't a problem at the Kentucky Derby, but it may be a consideration at the JerkWater Downs. Mike Hall Los Alamos Atom Mashers hall at lanl.gov -------------------------------------- From JudgeNet Wed Oct 6 23:48:25 1993 From: reeves at lanl.gov (Geoff Reeves) Subject: Re: JudgeNet Digest #634 (Oct 06, 1993) >From: nfarrell at ppco.com (Norman Farrell) >Subject: Place awards, true to style > >I would like to interrupt all the recent talk of judge qualifications witth >a question about awarding 1st, 2nd and 3rd place in categories where "most" >of the entries IMHO were "not according to style". > >The top several beers were good beers indeed and were all well crafted. They >just didn't happen to be wheat beers. > I think you're being a little harsh here. In the case of wheet beers if the brewer used a significant amount of wheet they entered it in the right catagory. If it didn't have the right characteristics then say so and score it accordingly. Most competitions have a cut-off that no "place" awards will be given to beers scoring less than say 30 points. Geoff +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | A brewery is like a toothbrush, everyone should have their own. | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Geoff Reeves: Space Science Division, Los Alamos National Laboratory | | reeves at lanl.gov (internet) or essdp2::reeves (span) | | Phone (505) 665-3877 | | Fax (505) 665-4414 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ -------------------------------------- From JudgeNet Wed Oct 6 23:48:25 1993 From: "John L. Isenhour" Subject: close to style Norman be typin: >After judging 2nd round inthe Wheat category at Nationals, I may have had >very high expectations. Virtually all the entries were clearly entered in >the right category. I have to admit I was a little suprized when whilst expecting a wheat, I began pouring a wonderful cherry mead that somehow ended up in that catagory. I checked and there was no bookeeping error and no wheats made it to the mead table. Sorry for the digression. I have refused to pass a second or third place, if in my opinon they were grossly out of catagory or defective (this results in scores low enough to justify this). In small competitions where there are mixed styles, we've not given second place in that catagory and awarded 2 second places in another catagory with mixed styles where they were obviously different but both great (and dead heat) finalists. BTW, Congrats to the MBA and Sherlocks Home for another fine judging and fest. The picture of the 'exploding kriek' came out great! Over 5 feet of foam are caught on camera! (opening the first bottle turned me into a foaming pink b-grade sci-fi nightmare:) I might have to see how this will .gif up. seeya, -john john at hopduvel.chi.il.us isenhour at lambic.fnal.gov -------------------------------------- From JudgeNet Fri Oct 8 05:05:19 1993 From: nfarrell at ppco.com (Norman Farrell) Subject: win, place or no I like the idea of clear instruction to the judges on such issues as minimum points for award. It sounds as if many contest organizers spell this out. I have never had this happen even at AHA Nats (in 1992). I agree that my question might seem a bit harsh in the case of a smaller competition with mixed categories (say where all the kinds of wheat beer were combined). And that it is NOT a black and white issue. But, in case where there were 15 entries in the Bavarian Wheat category..... Thanks for the discussion! Next contest I will ask for instructions if none are given. all typed out, Norman (nfarrell at ppco.com) -------------------------------------- From JudgeNet Sat Oct 9 12:34:34 1993 From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965) Subject: Color, Judging, etc. [Darryl Richman's detailed remarks in response to a post I made on Brewer's Forum are deleted here to save space. Anyone who wants `em may e-mail me privately. I have brought the discussion to JudgeNet. --t] >> = me > = Darryl Darryl -- I recognize your name as the guy who wrote the Brown Ale description in the style guide -- thanks for the reply. I am new to all this, and can certainly use the help getting started. I'll see whether John Sterling here in StL has the Winter `88 _Zymurgy_ issue you mentioned. Also, I just called up and requested the BJCP study material from AHA. >> The AHA style guideline says OG 1040 - 1055, and color 15 - 22 SRM. My >> understanding is that SRM approximately equals Lovibond. > >This is only very approximate, and is only really accurate when the >resulting beer is very pale. I interpret you to mean that the relationship between SRM & Lovibond is "very approximate", except when the beer is very pale, and then its pretty good. Or did you mean that the AHA color guidelines are "very approximate"? I had never considered the notion of color seperately from opacity. Its interesting to think that one could load up Budwiser with green dye and come up with a beer that is technically N degrees Lovibond. Now I guess I'll have to rethink a few things. How might we go about developing predictive methods for beer-color? Has this just not been thought about? Finally, what do the experienced beer judges think about making physical measurements of finished beer at competitions, maybe as a means to classify (or disqualify) them before turning them over to the tasters? I can see where attempting full-scale analysis might be impractical, but what do people think about it in principle? t ============================================================================= Tom Leith InterNet: trl at wuerl.WUstl.EDU 4434 Dewey Ave. CompuServe: 70441,3536 St. Louis, Missouri 63116 "Tho' I could not caution all 314/362-6965 - Office I still might warn a few: 314/362-6971 - Office Fax Don't lend your hand 314/481-2512 - Home + Infernal Machine to raise no flag atop no Ship of Fools" ============================================================================= -------------------------------------- From JudgeNet Sat Oct 9 12:34:34 1993 From: korz at iepubj.att.com Subject: Nats Award Threshold Norman writes: >minimum points for award. It sounds as if many contest organizers >spell this out. I have never had this happen even at AHA Nats (in >1992). I agree that my question might seem a bit harsh in the case I believe that there is a mention of it in the AHA Judging Guidelines - -- I believe it is 25 points are the minimum for being awarded a 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Could someone who knows where they put theirs check? I've seen these Guideline booklets pop up sporadically at competitions. It's a shame everyone doesn't get one along with their point listings every year. It's only about six or ten pages, about 3" by 8". Good info on brushing, flossing and spicy food avoidance (although I've yet to judge a competition, which served food during the inter-flight break, that didn't present a gallon of mustard and ten pounds of raw onions... sheesh!). Al. -------------------------------------- From JudgeNet Sat Oct 9 12:34:34 1993 From: Darryl Richman Subject: RE: Color, Judging, etc. Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965 writes: > I recognize your name as the guy who wrote the Brown Ale description in the > style guide -- thanks for the reply. I am new to all this, and can certainly > use the help getting started. I'll see whether John Sterling here in StL has > the Winter `88 _Zymurgy_ issue you mentioned. Also, I just called up and > requested the BJCP study material from AHA. I've just posted a follow up article in the Brewer's Forum. The actual issue is Fall '88 (v11, #3). I'd like to point out that as an author, I was never requested nor required to match my article to the (then prevailing) AHA competition style guidelines. I can only assume the same was true for the other authors. In writing my article I did take those guidelines into account, but as I felt that in some ways they were off, I had no reason not to follow where my research led me. > >> The AHA style guideline says OG 1040 - 1055, and color 15 - 22 SRM. My > >> understanding is that SRM approximately equals Lovibond. > > > >This is only very approximate, and is only really accurate when the > >resulting beer is very pale. > > I interpret you to mean that the relationship between SRM & Lovibond is "very > approximate", except when the beer is very pale, and then its pretty good. > Or did you mean that the AHA color guidelines are "very approximate"? The relationship between SRM and Lovibond color measuring systems is approximate but actually quite close. What is very approximate is the relationship between the formula lbs. * lovibond / gals. and the measured SRM (or Lovibond) results. The AHA color guidelines are also very approximate, and depend on your interpretation of SRM color numbers. See the article I've just posted to the BF this afternoon, for more on that. > I had never considered the notion of color seperately from opacity. Its > interesting to think that one could load up Budwiser with green dye and come > up with a beer that is technically N degrees Lovibond. Now I guess I'll have Absolutely. I believe (but am not certain) that SRM is measured at one light frequency, while EBC numbers are measured at two frequencies and the results combined somehow. Regardless, they are both measuring light transmission at only one or two points, as compared to our perception of color. It's like watching a black and white TV and trying to determine if someone's shirt is red or green. (I suppose it's the same as being red-green colorblind.) > to rethink a few things. How might we go about developing predictive methods > for beer-color? Has this just not been thought about? In my commercially available computer program, The Brewer's Planner (shameless plug), I use a different technique based upon the curve presented in Fix's article. The basic idea of this algorithm is to determine how big a batch would be required to make a proposed grist produce a 2-4 SRM beer (where the lb. * lov. / gal. formula is expected to work) and then move backwards along Fix's dilution curve to determine the antidilution represented by the actual batch size. It gives much better approximations of color, up to the 17 SRM limit of that curve. > Finally, what to the experienced beer judges think about making physical > measurements of finished beer at competitions, maybe as a means to classify > (or disqualify) them before turning them over to the tasters? I can see > where attempting full-scale analysis might be impractical, but what do people > think about it in principle? I think that the AHA guidelines are purposely loose in order to allow a wider range of beers to appear in each category. I think I've read some sentiment here that perhaps that ought to be the case for many of the other parameters as well. --Darryl Richman -------------------------------------- From JudgeNet Tue Oct 12 05:31:18 1993 From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu Subject: Judging Lambics, etc. 'Twas mentioned to me recently that AHA competition guidelines forbid blended beers. How, then, does one submit a Geueze, which is, by definition, blended? There are a number of other classic styles which contain a blend of old and new. Any thoughts? =S -------------------------------------- From JudgeNet Wed Oct 13 04:56:09 1993 From: Jeff Tobin Subject: RE: Award Threshold I'm looking at a copy of the AHA sanctioning pamphlet, under the Guidelines section, a paragraph entitled MINIMUM QUALITY. It states: "A mimimum rating of "good" (25 points on the AHA scoresheet) must be achieved by a contestant in order to qualify for an award. Competition organizers do not have to award first, second, or third place if beers are not of proper quality." Jeff Tobin --------------------------------------